Edit: let me preface this with a partial quote from GC's "Recent 3.3 PTR Paladin Changes" thread:

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Q u o t e:
The paladin class isn't just supposed to be for support anymore, but at the same time, the original intent for many paladin abilities was to help the group. Over time however they have contributed into making the paladin into a "one-man army," able to play offensively, defensively and heal without say the stance changing or shapeshifting or sometimes event talent specialization required of other classes. /Many of the LK balance problems we've had with the class are because of that core issue.

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I've underlined the portion that is the crux of the problem - there is a "core issue" Blizzard sees with the paladin class. And later in that post, he said that something may be done with Lay on Hands. This is a spell of great power and interest, and so I wrote up what I thought may be a nice change, should Blizzard decide to redesign it:


From what I gather with GC's post, Blizzard likely thinks that the current Lay on Hands is a little too powerful to be given to all flavors of paladins. That, I'm not entirely sure I'd agree, but for the sake of argument, let's use that as a starting point, and given that is the case, what can be changed about LoH to make it a balanced spell?

First of all, it's a little bursty. It heals for a lot. In fact, it heals for the paladin's health, which makes it (potentially, and in reality, most of the time) the largest heal in the game.

Now let's take a step back and think about WoW. This is a game that is inspired by D&D, a lot. In fact, if you takes a sober look at the Paladin class, you would notice things like Lay on Hands, disease resistance, etc., to be reminiscent of D&D flavors.

Now obviously these are very very different than the D&D versions. But let's take a look at Lay on Hands for a moment. In D&D, Lay on Hands is a spell a paladin can cast for a specific amount of health per day, but can dole out the healing in portions as the paladin desires. I'd like to take this fact, and make LoH in WoW a more interesting spell. So here it goes:


My idea is to let Lay on Hands be:

1) A spell that can heals up to 100% the Paladin's total health over time (more on this next) in a long time period, say 20 minutes.

2) The heal cannot happen all at once - but in several chunks, and each chunk can be, say, 20% of the paladin's health. So a total of 5 chunks can be doled out.

3) To prevent the healing paladin from spending 5 GCDs spamming this uninterruptible instant cast spell, there needs to be some kind of short cooldown between the chunks.

4) The short cooldown doesn't have to be a hard cooldown. Rather, it'll be a debuff that increases the cast time of the spell until the debuff expires. That way, the spell becomes interesting, as the paladin will have to decide to continue using the spell, or to wait till it's instant again to cast. Tentatively, let's say the debuff has a duration of 10 seconds, and it increases the cast time to 2 seconds (with the amount of haste a Holy paladin has, anything less would be nearly uninterruptible, and there'd be little decision).

With that, let's write the spell descriptions:

Lay on Hands
Instant, 40yd range
Heals a target for 30% of the paladin's health. Causes a Lay on Hands Exhaustion debuff that lasts for 10 seconds and that increases the cast time of Lay on Hands to 2 seconds. Also causes a Lay on Hands Depletion stacking debuff that lasts for 20 minutes if the paladin doesn't have the depletion debuff yet. If the Lay on Hands Depletion debuff stacks to 5, this spell can no longer be cast.


The talent Improved Lay on Hands in the Holy tree needs to be changed, so that the 20% damage reduction cannot be chained for 5x15 = 75 seconds of 20% physical damage reduction. It can be reworded as follows:

Improved Lay on Hands
Grants the target of your lay on hands spell 10/20% reduced physical damage taken for 15 seconds if you have not incurred the Lay on Hands Depletion debuff. In addition, the Lay on Hands Depletion debuff duration is reduced by 2/4 min.


Also, this seems a bit underpowered for Holy paladins when you think about it. 20% of a Holy paladin's health is probably smaller than Holy Shock past some spell power point, and so the use of this spell would become nil. Also, having a healing spell scale with stamina is kind of odd to me, personally. So I'm suggesting adding a scaling factor:

In this talent, add something:
Holy Guidance
Increases your spell power by 4/8/12/16/20% of your total Intellect. In addition, your Lay on Hands spell benefits from 20/40/60/80/100% of your spell power.

The spell power coefficient could probably use a larger percentage such as 120%, since it has a high CD (overall), and other drawbacks (cannot instant cast within 10 seconds).

I would be up for it being like a desperate prayer effect... where it has a minute or 2 cooldown and gives the armor buff that it currently does but doesn't heal for full hp. More like the same as a holy shock or a little more while giving an "exhaust" effect so the same person can't get lay on hand's by more than 1 paladin.

Here's an idea: Leave lay on hands alone. It's fine. This change will have more effects than just protholy in arenas. The levelling paladin just got nerfed. The Tank who's at critical just got nerfed. The holy paladin who is nearly dead just got nerfed. The ret pally who got cleaved yet(somehow!) managed to live got nerfed.

I think this change should be reverted.

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Q u o t e:
I think this change should be reverted.

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Good thing GC already posted saying it would be.

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Q u o t e:
I wouldn't worry too much on the Lay on Hands change at this point. I don't want to promise we won't change the spell for 3.3, but our intent was to revert the others only change before it went out to the PTR, which is why we didn't patch note it. We have already changed it back on our local builds.

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Q u o t e:
Good thing GC already posted saying it would be.

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If only it were that simple... he also said:

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With that said, we're just not sure a Lay on Hands change really accomplishes much from a balance perspective, while it feels bad to lose such an iconic ability. We just don't think the bang for the buck is there on this change, which is why we reverted it. But I'm not going to promise we won't touch it.

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And you know what Blizzard means by "touching" spells. ;)

Blizzard has some vision of the Paladin class, and it has gone from a "pure support" to "can do all 3 roles competently", and (having played WoW and lurked forums since beta) I feel there's a certain air about this that will lead to further revamp of this spell. And I'd rather say my ideas now, and hopefully get an interesting spell out of it, rather than: A) an underpowered one, or B) a boring one, or C) an overpowered one.

Here's a neat idea, leave it alone, make it non usuable in BG's and stop the pvp crying.

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Q u o t e:
Here's a neat idea, leave it alone, make it non usuable in BG's and stop the pvp crying.

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I think you misunderstood. If you read Ghostcrawler's excellent description of paladin changes, you'll have noticed that there has been a swift vision change ever since WotLK rolled around - that Paladins are now formally supported as competitive, useful members of all 3 class roles. And that the original Lay on Hands as is, no longer fits well with this new vision of equity.

Things will continue to change to support balance, and rather than trying to convince Blizzard to change nothing - they won't - it'd be a better strategy now to discuss the good and bad of various legacy spells, in PVE and PVP, and suggest ideas that are potentially balanced for most (if not every) aspect of the game.

Even though there are special cases now (resilience, CC durations, deep freeze, among other things), Blizzard is still trying to maintain a level of consistency across all aspects of the game. So think about it when you want to make a persuasive argument to Blizzard.


Edit: For your benefit, here's the link to Ghostcrawler's write-up: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677861597&sid=1

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Q u o t e:
Here's an idea: Leave lay on hands alone. It's fine. This change will have more effects than just protholy in arenas. The levelling paladin just got nerfed. The Tank who's at critical just got nerfed. The holy paladin who is nearly dead just got nerfed. The ret pally who got cleaved yet(somehow!) managed to live got nerfed.

I think this change should be reverted.

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That's the problem with LoH. It's an "instantly solve all my problems even though I screwed up badly" button. The leveling paladin should learn to pull a manageable amount instead of pressing LoH when he overpulls. The tank should should be geared/experienced enough that nothing should really put him at critical. The holy pally should just pop divine shield if he's about to die. The ret pally needs to stop being bad and stop DPSing in front of the boss so that he doesn't get cleaved.

Lay on Hands is fine. Why anyone thinks it's a problem is beyond me.

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Q u o t e:



That's the problem with LoH. It's an "instantly solve all my problems even though I screwed up badly" button. The leveling paladin should learn to pull a manageable amount instead of pressing LoH when he overpulls. The tank should should be geared/experienced enough that nothing should really put him at critical. The holy pally should just pop divine shield if he's about to die. The ret pally needs to stop being bad and stop DPSing in front of the boss so that he doesn't get cleaved.

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LoH is such a unique ability that the "perfect time" to use it either never really happens in PVE or it is never used at the right time (either tank dies before one hits it or its used right after the said person gets a quick heal from elsewhere). In PVP it is much more desirable because it can be used a lot of the time to save someone who can't necessarily live long enough for a 1.5 / 2 second heal. If an over pull happens, most times than not if you HAVE to use LoH to save the tank, odds are they're still going to die because if your regular heals couldn't keep him up, that still won't change in the time after LoH is used.

I agree with leaving it alone. Frankly I feel like Warriors and DKs are underpowered compared to Paladins and should be buffed up to our level, but being that this isn't the tanking forum, I won't get into that here.

I'll just say that whatever happens to LoH, please bear in mind that yes, some of us do use it as an "Oh sh*t" button when tanking. Overpulls happen and crits happen, especially when you're still leveling.

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Q u o t e:
I think you misunderstood. If you read Ghostcrawler's excellent description of paladin changes, you'll have noticed that there has been a swift vision change ever since WotLK rolled around - that Paladins are now formally supported as competitive, useful members of all 3 class roles. And that the original Lay on Hands as is, no longer fits well with this new vision of equity.

Things will continue to change to support balance, and rather than trying to convince Blizzard to change nothing - they won't - it'd be a better strategy now to discuss the good and bad of various legacy spells, in PVE and PVP, and suggest ideas that are potentially balanced for most (if not every) aspect of the game.

Even though there are special cases now (resilience, CC durations, deep freeze, among other things), Blizzard is still trying to maintain a level of consistency across all aspects of the game. So think about it when you want to make a persuasive argument to Blizzard.


Edit: For your benefit, here's the link to Ghostcrawler's write-up: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677861597&sid=1

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I read his thread. I also recall that GC was the lead designer when they removed the high mana cost of using the ability. Here's my problem. Now I don't know if this is accurate or not but (and I hope GC doesn't take this the wrong way) I feel that they have no vision for the Paladin. In every patch during this xpac they have tried to change the class, sometimes adding, sometimes subtracting, sometimes going in a specific direction, sometimes doing a 180. I feel that they don't know what they are doing with the class. And all this talk about having a vision is just that talk. I have yet to see a vision for the paladin that supports all the changes they have made and unmade since the end of TBC.

I'm glad they're reverting the change.

However, going forward, I'd like to offer a perspective from a non-end-game paladin. I have a little paladin that I work on leveling from time to time. I use lay on hands all the time when soloing. Losing it would dramatically change the way a paladin solos, at least at lower levels. I have no experience with higher level paladins to speak of, but I imagine they must use it when soloing to some extent as well. I use it for the mana burst as well as the healing.

I think that, if they look at changing self lay on hands in the future, it'd be nice to preserve some self-use ability, especially for low level players. Or, perhaps add a slightly less powerful version for lower level players, and have them graduate into a non-self-use, full strength version later, if it is deemed a problem.


Additionally, from a generic healing perspective, the idea of a healing spell that you cannot use on yourself is really counter-intuitive and downright obnoxious. This should be evident from the number of complaints, comments, and mistaken bug reports filed when Penance was first released and could only be cast on other players.

The problem with that GC is that you guys buff us the same way. Why did ret need Art of War if you guys specifically wanted them not to cast heals (ie: moving art of war positioning around to prevent healers from getting it). Why does prot need divine sacrifice or divine guardian when they can't use them while tanking? Why are the spells in deep Holy spells that don't increase your healing power and don't provide any utility (particularly in PVP)?

The changes that we get seem to always adversely effect one part of the game. Either it's a well-reasoned change for PVP or it's a well-reasoned changed for PVE, but generally they cause a huge problem for the opposite game type.

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Q u o t e:
We actually have a pretty good vision for the paladin. In fact, we've always had a strong vision for what the class should be, but that vision has also changed over time.

I think the bigger issue may be that we don't necessarily have the same vision that some players might have.

And to be totally honest, in many cases the "don't have a vision" arguments get brought up only right after a nerf.

Blizzard nerfed me. I don't think I needed to be nerfed. Therefore, the nerf did not make sense to me. Therefore, Blizzard doesn't have a vision for the class.

I'm not trying to be glib with that comment. Ask yourself how often that pattern holds when you read someone making the "lack o' vision" argument.

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I don't think it's that you don't have a vision for the class - to suggest so is quite silly, in my opinion. It's not even about player perception.

It's about how we're actually interacting and playing. I'm okay with being nerfed if we're overpowered, even situationally. But at the same time, I think it's fair to say that we still have some core issues that are fairly significant - such as having only 3 real healing spells, or Seals being such a huge portion of our damage, or the affects of dispel on us.

Granted, we're in a really good place right now overall and we can't expect you to make lots of changes as once, but I can see how a lot of players can get frustrated, especially if they're being shortsighted.

Edit: to expand slightly on this - look at a level 80 Paladin's spellbook - we have twice as many Holy and Protection spells compared to Retribution. Granted there's some crossover - but I think that's an easy visual example of why we see a bit of a roller-coaster as a class.

I'm going with Blizzard has a much different vision then what many posting pallies would like.

It seems pretty plain to me that they want paladins to be simple to get up to speed with, maybe comparable to say, warriors for tanking, or priests for healing, or rogues for DPS.

As a healer they have less buttons that they will be using a lot in their normal healing role then most healers. As a Tank/DP their abilities are CD controlled, forcing a rotation of sorts, so, even if they don't pick the best order, they should wind up with something decent.

With this simplicity comes some development complexity in how do they address paladin balance issues without making paladins too much more complex, but not gimping or making them OP at the same time,

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Q u o t e:


I don't think it's that you don't have a vision for the class - to suggest so is quite silly, in my opinion. It's not even about player perception.

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He quoted what he was responding to.

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I feel that they have no vision for the Paladin.

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He quoted what he was responding to.

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I'm well aware - I was in fact reiterating one of Ghostcrawler's points.

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And to be totally honest, in many cases the "don't have a vision" arguments get brought up only right after a nerf.

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If it helps, paladins have been saying this for about a year straight, regardless of whether the most recent patch included buffs or nerfs.