So it essentially has the same duration as Art of War.

Yea... no sympathy here.

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Q u o t e:
so don't try to sell me that having chain instant cast cyclones isn't broke.

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This really isn't how it currently works, so ok, I won't try to sell you that.

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Q u o t e:
You don't need to sell me that feral, balance and resto all need buffs. I have an alt druid i play very casually 2kish range helping friends my preferred spec is balance but that is not possible. I played with a feral druid with my shaman last season. I know all the pains you are talking about but having this in its current form is broke. I've played enhance since s1 been through the same crap feral/balance has been through so don't try to sell me that having chain instant cast cyclones isn't broke.

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you dont get chain instant cast cyclones, you dont even know how the ability works

assuming 40% of your abilities crititically hit, it normally takes 3-4 attacks to generate 5 combo points, each one is about 40 energy, which is four seconds of energy, so it takes between 12-16 seconds to get 5 combo points without using cooldowns, and another 2-3 seconds to get enough energy to use a finisher abilities to get a cyclone proc.

thats 19 seconds worth of energy, if you get lucky, or use tiger's fury, or get an omen of clarity proc, we can shorten that time to 15 seconds, so lets just assume every 15 seconds we get lucky or get a OOC proc, thats still one instant cyclone every 15 seconds in general.

how is this chain casting instant cyclones?

you say you play at 2k ish ranges, that doesnt mean anything dude, i've seen clickers and keyturners at 2200 all the time, doesnt mean your good and it doesnt mean your opinion isnt biased and stupid

feral and balance are still the worst PvP hybrid specs, all shaman specs are performing better then them, and so are all pally specs. other classes dont have to change gear set to respec to a better spec for PvP, so going by that, naturally blizzards first priority should be to make all hybrid specs work, which is what theyve been doing this entire xpac, druids have just been last on the list

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Q u o t e:
So it essentially has the same duration as Art of War.

Yea... no sympathy here.

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art of war= brainless free proc anytime you crit

you get so many of them that it doesnt even matter if you waste one, lawl.

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Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

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Take off the energy consumption scaling of FB. Most cats would be happy and no more giant crits.

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

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How about, instead, using the proc clears all combo points?

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Q u o t e:


How about, instead, using the proc clears all combo points?

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Err, wouldn't you then be pressured to use all combo points before using your proc all the time? Seems like that would be worse in terms of flexibility.

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

I agree with GC that this type of use of PS is rather unfair, and I understand why there is need to nerf it.

However, I think there are better ways to nerf this than reducing the duration of PS so drastically.

5 seconds is way too short and makes the ability very very difficult to use - if not impossible, if you get hit by even 1 CC that lasts more than 2 seconds.

Maybe that's the intention, I don't know. But it has made the talent incredibly un-fun now because I have to go into panic-mode whenever it procs. Feral PvP on the PTR has become me constantly stressing about lag and GCDs to be able to use the proc before it wears off, and it's very discouraging. I almost wish I didn't even have PS anymore so I could stop worrying about it.

It's literally gotten to the point that if I use even one ability between the time PS procs, and when I shift out to use it, it will have wore off due to lag or GCDs or being hit with a CC. 5 seconds is incredibly punitive.

If Ferocious Bite was the problem, please consider removing the Energy Conversion on Ferocious Bite (thus removing the incentive to perform above described action).

Edit: Alternatively, if removing the energy conversion on Ferocious Bite is not a possible solution from Blizzard's perspective, could we hear from you why this is the case?

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

Ferals that use this technique severely gimp their ferocious bite. In order to do this, the feral has to stop dpsing on their target, potentially lose mangle / bleed debuffs, choose whether to keep up rip or savage roar, etc etc etc, for the sake of a ferocious bite that is by no means a guarenteed crit, and by no means hitting for huge numbers on a pvp geared target. My feral druid crits for 10k ferocious bite on clothies in hateful gear (decently geared with grim toll + arpen gemming).

Also, to be fair, if this playstyle is an issue, there are other forms of CC that need to be getting nerfed as well >.>

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

i understand why this would be considered kinda dumb, but at the same time, this NEVER happens in pvp at higher ratings, people dont just sit around and let you setup for 20 seconds to do this

ferocious bite crits hit for around 6k on most classes though after resil, the only classes it can hit very hard on are frost mages and rogues, everything else it hits relatively low. lets be generous and say my FB's hit for 7k every time, 7k out of 25k hp? thats unreasonable to you considering the amount of setup required? you should log onto a fully pvp geared feral and do this on dummies, like, to see how long it takes to setup or something, just so you get what i mean and such ya know? and then reduce your fb crit by 35% ish and thats prolly around what itd hit for on most pvp targets

considering lava burst, shatter combo's, chaos bolt, and plenty of other abilities in the game can do that much damage instantly with MUCH LESS setup then having to get a savage roar/mangle/bleed AND 5 combo points up plus an instant cyclone proc from a previous finisher, i think ferocious bite hitting for 7k and then landing a cyclone on a healer is pretty reasonable, it takes well over 20 seconds to setup that sequence, i thought thats what arena was supposed to be about isnt it, coordinating with your partners to land kills

the amount of setup this requires just to hope you get a 7k ferocious bite crit is not worth it man, i play in gladiator range and we have never won a game because of this, ever, i dont even bother TRYING to do this specific setup because it never pays off. we win games because we coordinate burst when i set up rip/rake/mangle with a cyclone on the healer typically, not because of ferocious bite crits or energy saving for big ferocious bites. to me personally ferocious bite is worthless, ive never been a fan, i basically never use it, it barely hits harder then shred and for the oppurtunity cost isnt worth it unless someone is about to die and your maxed on cp's

like i said my ferocious bites personally crit for roughly 6k at best unless my target is a mage or rogue, or there are VERY extreme circumstances like a grim toll proc/pve gear, which really can be said of any melee class using a hard hitting skill in those circumstances

anyway, 5 seconds is way too harsh dont you think?

you could nerf it to 8-10 seconds and that would end the possibility of the situation you just explained

lets say you savage roar and get a instant cyclone proc, after the global of savage roar you have 3.5 seconds left to launch your instant cyclone or its lost... doesnt that seem a little bit unreasonable? 3.5 seconds? : \\\\\ you cant even time it at all like that, you just have to blow it the instant you get it

on a side note, wouldnt removing ferocious bites energy consumption fix this? give it the same scaling as eviscerate or something? why dont you just do that, itll make everyone happy, feral druids hate ferocious bite, and they only use it as a last resort, or if they have an overpowered apen proc to hope for a ridiculous 10k crit or something

i know you guys hate homogenization n such, but its a realy easy solution to the problem your talking about

thanks for the response on a side note ghostcrawler, really appreciate you responding to something feral related n such <3

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

Honestly I would much rather you just nerf ferocious bite. That ability is already such a crapshoot I just hate it. Get rid of the extra energy consumption or something.

Also I've never found any great usefulness in doing what you described above. Perhaps somebody could get away with that in the lower brackets, but this is nearly impossible to pull off in the higher ratings. The amount of setup required to do this is just insane. Typically as a feral I spend a lot of my time stunlocked, it is already hard enough to get combo points just to get a PS proc when I need it often times, let alone be able to use it in the now 4 second window you give us.

Honestly with what little I've tried PS on the PTR, I already know that most of my PS procs will be consumed by short duration stuns and CC's, and it'll be difficult if not impossible to time cyclones around my teammates' CC. They'll have to CC on my terms rather than when it is opportune for them to do so. This if anything makes feral even more of a burden to have on your team than it already is.

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

and so your solution is to nerf PS instead of FB? why not just nerf FB and remove the energy conversion? this way you can prevent this "playstyle", get the forum QQers off our back about FB crits, and make our finisher more efficient.

three birds with one stone!

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Q u o t e:


Take off the energy consumption scaling of FB. Most cats would be happy and no more giant crits.

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Actually, I think this makes a lot of sense.

There were issues with Execute crits being way too high; why not give FB the same treatment, but cap it at 60 Energy? The only thing I can think of that would prevent this from being the best move to make, is if they want Cats to be able to deliver The Pain™ if they want to make the Energy sacrifice needs to go for a potential full Energy FB crit. It is nice to at least know you have that option as a player -- to know that, yeah, if I want, I can potentially wreck someone, and go about trying to set it up (a 5pt full energy FB takes a decent amount of time to set up).

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Q u o t e:


Take off the energy consumption scaling of FB. Most cats would be happy and no more giant crits.

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This.

The damage per energy of FB is horrible when converting extra energy, and it's already in a druids best interest NOT to save it up. Most druids make sure never to use FB unless they have the minimum energy because the rest is wasted.

Many people have been asking for this to be removed for some time now, and doing so would solve both problems without needing to nerf the talent.

Furthermore, nerfing the duration of the proc actually REDUCES druid utility. As soon as we get a proc, we'll feel obligated to use it ASAP, rather than wait for a few seconds to assess the situation and see if a more strategic use for the instant arises.

Yep, just get rid of the energy conversion on FB, everybody will be happy about this, no more 10k crits on rogues/mages/people who use pve gear (...) and makes it easier to use in pve. Then, make PS last 10 seconds.

Thank you for responding to this GC :) But please take a look at FB mechanics, i think everybody would be happy if the energy conversion was taken off.

As much as I want blizzard to remove that extra 30 energy conversion on ferocious bite, I doubt they will for this reason:

They don't want to mess with feral PVE dps, and doing so might buff it to a level that they aren't prepared to balance around for patch 3.3. They want to wait until Cataclysm comes out to find out if doing so is a good idea, and if not, what else can they change to make it work.

That said, prepare for the next patch to make ferals even more broken until The Next Expansion(TM) (unless there's another major content patch before then? all sources currently point to no)

---

Q u o t e:
We made the change to discourage a very specific form of gameplay. Specifically, this was:

1. Get the proc, but don't use it.
2. Build up 5 more cps on the target.
3. Now Cyclone before you do another finishing move.
4. Let your energy fill to full.
5. As soon as the Cyclone ends, unleash a huge Ferocious Bite with 5 cps and full energy.

Aside from the very high damage of an almost unpreventable Ferocious Bite, this way of using the proc worked counter to what we were trying to encourage. It's often easy for melee classes to get tunnel vision and just unleash every attack on the same target rather than switching targets or otherwise responding to what is going on in the fight. We'd rather see the proc get used to Cyclone say a healer or someone chasing your teammates.

In short, the intent was to give cats more team utility, not to give them a delivery mechanism for guaranteed full Ferocious Bites. With this change it will be risky or impossible to sit on the proc for long.

---

I guess that makes sense. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the change, I at least appreciate knowing why it was changed.

Also, considering the multitude of other ways this ability could have been nerfed, this isn't the worst way.

---

Q u o t e:


Take off the energy consumption scaling of FB. Most cats would be happy and no more giant crits.

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I agree with this. The full resource dump attack didn't work for warriors and cats aren't fans of it either.

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Q u o t e:
As much as I want blizzard to remove that extra 30 energy conversion on ferocious bite, I doubt they will for this reason:

They don't want to mess with feral PVE dps, and doing so might buff it to a level that they aren't prepared to balance around for patch 3.3. They want to wait until Cataclysm comes out to find out if doing so is a good idea, and if not, what else can they change to make it work.

That said, prepare for the next patch to make ferals even more broken until The Next Expansion(TM) (unless there's another major content patch before then? all sources currently point to no)

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Most ferals use it at 35 energy right now anyways, this would just make it less of a risk to use over 35 energy, not really a pve buff at all, and if it is a buff not a very big one, probably not even 100 dps.

They already "nerfed" FB energy conversion once, time to finish it off.