So what if I have high ilevels in pvp gear but low ilevels in pve gear. I then queue for an instance with the Dungeon tool in my pvp gear, and as a result get matched with others with low level gear. We get an unbalanced number of people in low level gear.

A potentially larger problem is that (haughty? not sure of the word here..) people will intentionally equip themselves in horrible gear when queueing for the Dungeon tool so that their group will intentionally be overgeared.

Problem.

---

Q u o t e:

Performance, Achievements, gear, etc. I don't see how the Dungeon System changes this. The LFR system will afford players who want to raid additional options for finding the best group and raid leader. Nothing is fundamentally changing with regards to expected performance in a pick-up raid. We're just giving players more tools to find a raid (realm-only) or dungeon (cross-realm) group. Each player is still accountable for his or her performance.


It's going to try to group people with similar gear together, similar to the Arena system attempting to match teams with relatively equivalent ratings against each other.

---

I was actually referring to the re-bumping of emblems, and in that respect, it eliminates gear even further as a relevant experience indicator in my mind. I do like the dungeon system by the way, just not the frequency with which emblems are bumped.

---

Q u o t e:
So what if I have high ilevels in pvp gear but low ilevels in pve gear. I then queue for an instance with the Dungeon tool in my pvp gear, and as a result get matched with others with low level gear. We get an unbalanced number of people in low level gear.

A potentially larger problem is that (haughty? not sure of the word here..) people will intentionally equip themselves in horrible gear when queueing for the Dungeon tool so that their group will intentionally be overgeared.

Problem.

---

Zarhym just said that it tries to match people of similar item level. So if you're have good gear, you would be grouped with other people with good gear.

However this means you could still mislead people. You could join in your awesome DPS gear while also saying you can tank. You get added to a well-geared group as a tank, then promptly switch to your awful tanking gear.

So if the Dungeon system fills vacancies, doesn't that mean it's possible to get sucked into an empty spot in a group that's on the last boss of a heroic, thus getting locked to the heroic and missing badges/loot from the previous boss?

---

Q u o t e:

Sorry to say that, but that is kind of retarded.

Though I'm sure lots of people will disagree, but I don't mind carrying fresh 80s through heroics. I know I've been when I reached 80 on my latest character, and I like helping new guys.

Now, you'll have fresh 80s with fresh 80s, and epic'd geared players with epic'd geared players. Tried the new LFG system on the PTR, and the window looks bad. It seems really complicated for nothing...

---

I'm sure there a plenty of fresh 80s on your own server who would be delighted to be carried through an instance.

---

Q u o t e:

Performance, Achievements, gear, etc. I don't see how the Dungeon System changes this. The LFR system will afford players who want to raid additional options for finding the best group and raid leader. Nothing is fundamentally changing with regards to expected performance in a pick-up raid. We're just giving players more tools to find a raid (realm-only) or dungeon (cross-realm) group. Each player is still accountable for his or her performance.


It's going to try to group people with similar gear together, similar to the Arena system attempting to match teams with relatively equivalent ratings against each other.

---

Hows it going to work with people that say (for example) that they can tank, but show up with only dps gear and 24k HP, will I be able to boot them from the group?
If I leave group because he's the group leader will I still get the debuff?

Edit: how do I stop people from making groups just to boot people to give them the debuff just for kicks (if you do get the debuff then its going to happen)

---

Q u o t e:
So if the Dungeon system fills vacancies, doesn't that mean it's possible to get sucked into an empty spot in a group that's on the last boss of a heroic, thus getting locked to the heroic and missing badges/loot from the previous boss?

---

No. He already said that you will be given the choice to join a partial instance. It already warns you now when bosses are down, so I would assume you just don't get he deserter debuff if you decline.

---

Q u o t e:


Zarhym just said that it tries to match people of similar item level. So if you're have good gear, you would be grouped with other people with good gear.

However this means you could still mislead people. You could join in your awesome DPS gear while also saying you can tank. You get added to a well-geared group as a tank, then promptly switch to your awful tanking gear.

---

Honestly, there's not much of a motivation for that. As a tank, I would rather tank for people at my gear level, for threat reasons mostly. All my gears item budget has gone into survivability, and relatively little in tps, so when grouping with people that have a gearscore approaching 1000 more than me, threat can be a concern.

I think people worry too much about people wanting to be carried. It can happen, but it's not as common as people expect, really.

---

Q u o t e:
No, you cannot exclude a dungeon through the Random option. As I said above, being saved to a Heroic dungeon will not render you unable to run that Heroic dungeon again if it is selected at random.

---

This is the part my wife is very angry about. As I said in another post, the great thing about the heroic daily was that you could choose to do it or not for that day (if it was Oculus) and run it on days when you liked (or tolerated the dungeon). There was still some sort of progress. Doing random dungeon in order to get an emblem of Frost is just not a good way to go. Already we're seeing people drop out of groups on the test realm if some dungeon is selected that they didn't like. Why not allow people to opt out of a couple of them, so that we have less people dropping out when they get into a dungeon? It's pretty annoying, to say the least. If you're not going to do that, then how about simply putting the daily heroic quest back so that people who want to do it that way, have the option of making some kind of progress without inconveniencing the group?


-EDarkness

Thanks for answering all these questions for us.

So just to be clear useing random bypasses heroic lockouts as long as you are queuing for a random dungeon but once you've done a heroic, even through random you cant specificly choose that one agian that day. is there a limit on the number of random dungeons a day?

Also still curious on when the "Day" resets in relation to geting the frost emblems. I only ask because I play my alts at very weird hours sometimes and I ocasionaly bump into the differences between the curent daily resets and when the heroics reset.

Can you remove occulus from existence?

Lucky as I am, I will get this stupid and most annoying instance EVER made all the time on random daily.

Earning your pay today Zarhym. Very good answers to the questions so far (though I thought the patch notes made many of those questions redundant).

Interesting thread. Would read again.

---

Q u o t e:
Can you remove occulus from existence?

Lucky as I am, I will get this stupid and most annoying instance EVER made all the time on random daily.

---

Heh, no one runs that place if it's the daily, and on the test realm people drop out if they get put into a random Oculus run. It's extremely annoying and they really need to do something to either have a set daily for those who want to still progress, or to opt out of a dungeon so they don't get put into a group that's running it.


<edit>: I just hopped on the test realm and tried to be listed in a raid and for a dungeon and we can't do both. So if you are open for doing pretty much anything and want to scan groups while doing other things, that can't happen anymore.


-EDarkness

A few points to get my 2 copper in:

1. Will the system permit people to acquire random players who are specifically looking to complete 5 man level achievements? Meaning, I want to find people who want to do achievements - will the system have an ability to filter those players for you, or are we back to spamming LFG and trade channels?

2. Wil the system match people of average gear score within a certain undisclosed margin? E.g. calculate the average ilvl of group members and match players within a certain variance ilvl. This allows players of equal progression to move forward together. I certainly enjoyed moving through 5 mans as progression in early wotlk and newer players miss out on this as they fast forward through them with players of significantly greater skill and gear.

3. Can we have a filter that let's us exclude one particular instance from random selection? For example, the Occulus is hands down reluctantly run and frequently skipped daily heroic. To save players from queuing and dropping and queuing and droppping, can we just have a single dungeon exclusion? Alternatlvely, can you just never make a 5 man with vehicle combat again?

---

Q u o t e:


I hadn't noticed that. I suspect that requirement will get removed if enough people really voice the concern over 4-manning it. Or you could always ask in guild or trade chat for someone to join the group so you can start the instance, then they'd leave immediately.

---

Well, I don't usually 4-man the dailies, but it seems like an arbitrary hoop to make players jump through to me.

---

Q u o t e:
A few points to get my 2 copper in:

3. Can we have a filter that let's us exclude one particular instance from random selection? For example, the Occulus is hands down reluctantly run and frequently skipped daily heroic. To save players from queuing and dropping and queuing and droppping, can we just have a single dungeon exclusion? Alternatlvely, can you just never make a 5 man with vehicle combat again?

---

I hope they do this as well. I don't have a problem with something like Oculus, but I know many people who hate it and refuse to run it for any reason. Being able to opt-out of a couple of them would be nice to keep deserters to a minimum. It's extremely annoying to have people keep dropping out of a group if it's something like Oculus.


-EDarkness

Wow, I had no idea there was such a fond hatred for Occulus. We just run it as another daily heroic. Why don't people like it?

I'd really like Blizzard to reconsider forcing groups to have 5 players in them before being able to start the daily random heroic/normal dungeons for extra badges. Running without any pugs allows me and my friends to never have to worry about possible loot disputes or other problems.

I'm fine with not being able to get the achievements related to pugging (or the extra gold if that stays intact.) I'd just like to continue to be able to get daily emblem rewards the way we always have, by under manning dungeons.