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Q u o t e:
This isn't really a viable reason for why SS shouldn't be nerfed. It is a holy spell deep down, as holy lacks any real 'fun' with it's healing.

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And ret lacks "fun" while supporting its team. Its why we're there right?

Maybe it's better to simply make SS a deep holy talent and balance the other specs around the loss of it.

However, the real problem of the class is the bubble. Yeah, it is iconic. Yeah, it is cool. It WAS cool. Speaking as a former holy paladin, the bubble became a burden for this class.

The class needs so much more offensive utility and we got none because of this darn bubble. Our defensive utility is built around it, so we're gods when it's up and sitting ducks when it's on CD. It reaches the point where this is THE most frustrating skill in the game:

- It's frustrating for any1 that's beating the paladin to watch him go back to full.

- It's frustrating for the paladin to not have any other decent and reliable defensive CD besides bubble.

- It's WAY frustrating to see your 5 min CD gone to oblivion by priests and warriors.


IMO bubble needs to go on cataclysm. It's not fun anymore, it's a burden. and it's getting heavier and heavier.

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Q u o t e:
Maybe it's better to simply make SS a deep holy talent and balance the other specs around the loss of it.

However, the real problem of the class is the bubble. Yeah, it is iconic. Yeah, it is cool. It WAS cool. Speaking as a former holy paladin, the bubble became a burden for this class.

The class needs so much more offensive utility and we got none because of this darn bubble. Our defensive utility is built around it, so we're gods when it's up and sitting ducks when it's on CD. It reaches the point where this is THE most frustrating skill in the game:

- It's frustrating for any1 that's beating the paladin to watch him go back to full.

- It's frustrating for the paladin to not have any other decent and reliable defensive CD besides bubble.

- It's WAY frustrating to see your 5 min CD gone to oblivion by priests and warriors.


IMO bubble needs to go on cataclysm. It's not fun anymore, it's a burden. and it's getting heavier and heavier.

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agreed

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Q u o t e:
cause all nerfs come with compensation

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If a nerf comes with compensation, then it's not a nerf.

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Q u o t e:
And ret lacks "fun" while supporting its team. Its why we're there right?

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No.

I played retribution as team support damage dealing because of

-Hands
-Heals
-Taunts + defensive cooldowns
-Damage spreads
-Auras and built in utility
-Judgement buffs
-Blessings

Not because of SS. If you don't find all of those things fun, and your list is just SS, then quit retribution. That's just a silly thing to say.

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Q u o t e:



Nourish is widely used in PVP by druids of all 3 specs.

Hymn of Hope and Divine Hymn are both amazing for priests, regardless of spec.

Shattering throw is used by warriors in PVP for extra damage, and to keep people in combat so they don't drink. It also causes high threat, making it a useful tanking skill.

Army of the Dead is easily one of the most iconic abilities of DKs, and is used in PVP (specifically world pvp and BGs) and PVE. Even tank DKs use it in raids for more DPS.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that level 80 abilities aren't used by all specs.

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Retribution will still be able to use SS, but it won't be as useful as it is for the spec that it's intended.

Much like the list you just made for those classes.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sure you've seen it, but I made a quick post in the healing forums explaining some of our thinking.

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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677861597&sid=1 in case anyone wants to look.

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Q u o t e:
No.

I played Holy as team support healing because of

-Hands
-Heals
-Taunts + defensive cooldowns
-Damage spreads
-Auras and built in utility
-Judgement buffs
-Blessings

Not because of SS. If you don't find all of those things fun, and your list is just SS, then quit Holy. That's just a silly thing to say.

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Fixed

Sad isnt it?

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Q u o t e:
I'm expecting to see something like this in the patch notes if that crap goes live.

"In order to better reflect the ability of the skill, Sacred Shield has had it's name changed to Sacred "Shield".

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"Shield"? More like "Loincloth"


I like how they have made holy the only worthwhile healing tree in both PVE and PVP, but nerfing 2/3 of the class just to make the other 1/3 be used as it should be? Bad design. Of course, paladins have never had a "good" design now have they?

I'm glad I only have time until the end of this year on my account, because this game is becoming utterly too much bull%!*@ for me to deal with, especially for something that I'm supposed to be -enjoying- and not pulling my hair out in frustration over.

Maybe Blizz will have something worthwhile when they redo things in Cata, but I'm not holding my breath because anything short of a complete overhaul will not be able to balance paladins.

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Q u o t e:
I want to see what you call "doing badly" if Retribution is well.

http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statistics/specs/3v3.html Ret is only 13% of all 2K+ paladins.

There are more HOLY priests or COMBAT rogues than 2K+ Retribution.

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A skilled Retadin is capable of being in the top-10 at the end of a season with multiple comps. It's not 100% balanced in that, as I said, it's not likely we'll see even one Ret Relentless Gladiator (at least not from 3's -- 5's can be a bit random) and you won't see a Ret win money at a tournament. Yes, Ret could use some slight buffs, but the way you present your statistics and make it sound is we need major buffs right now to be viable. No, that would make us overpowered. We should leave cleaning up clunky parts of the class (such as the seal system) or adding new utility that would allow us to play more diverse comps rather than Cleaves (perhaps an interrupt) for the expansion when everyone gets new toys.

I'm not going to exaggerate to prove my point. We're a pretty good spec in arena right now, but not among the best. This is why it makes no sense to gut Ret with this Sacred Shield nerf. Let there be no doubt to non-paladins: Sacred Shield is essential to Ret's arena success. If this nerf goes through without Sacred Shield being buffed in deep-Ret as it is in deep-Holy, then we'll need new utility such as an interrupt. That's how big this nerf is.

For those that will say, "you don't deserve compensation for a nerf! A nerf is a nerf!" I would respond that we are taking collateral damage. It would be ridiculous to assume this is aimed at Ret arena since if anything we could use small buffs there. The best among us should be capable of duking it out for number one titles and winning cash at tournaments which is not currently the case. I'm not demanding buffs. I was willing to wait for Cataclysm for Ret to be brought to this level since I see WotLK as a stepping stone from TBC; we've gone from weak and only capable of reaching Glad by getting carried (if you got Glad with war/Ret/R. druid in TBC, that team would have done three times as well with a 'lock) to a fairly balanced spec. That's enough for me for this expansion set.

Blizzard has done a great job of making Ret an acceptable arena spec this expansion. Not only did they make us viable, but from S5 to S7 they increased our skill-cap dramatically whatever people may say to the contrary. Having our utility based on Sacred Shield and Divine Sac rather than effortless utility such as the old Vindication, Replenishment, and too much reactive damage was a great move by the developers. The twilight of an expansion is not the time to ruin all the great work that has been done. Please revert the SS nerf for Ret or compensate us in some way.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sure you've seen it, but I made a quick post in the healing forums explaining some of our thinking.

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Ret is 'tanky' in BG's against undergeared players. Ret is not 'tanky' in Arena.

Hint: Force the bubble, swap targets, when the bubble is down, kill the ret.

In the presence of Mass Dispel, or Purge its even more of a joke.

I wont spit, but i will /sigh.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sure you've seen it, but I made a quick post in the healing forums explaining some of our thinking.

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k how about ret buffs?

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Q u o t e:
our overall goal is to make Ret less tanky

-Ghostcrawler

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You cant be serious? GC, explain to me where you think ret is tanky.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sure you've seen it, but I made a quick post in the healing forums explaining some of our thinking.

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Ret isn't tanky. You should try PvPing some time.

Apparently, GC and his bads believe prot/ret specs = retribution.

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Q u o t e:


You cant be serious?

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I'm sure he's thinking about a fully geared relentless paladin vs 4 scrubs in blues in BGs.

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Q u o t e:


You cant be serious? GC, explain to me where you think ret is tanky.

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In bg's against fresh 80's and casual's who have poor gear and teammates that dont know how to focus.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sure you've seen it, but I made a quick post in the healing forums explaining some of our thinking.

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I'm going to quote myself from another forum real quick:

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Q u o t e:
The sacred shield nerf, though... that's just crazy. It's either them honestly not realizing what they're doing, or setting up to finally give us either a reasonable interrupt or a 20% ms or something.


Hence the comment on the exo interrupt, with exo at 15 seconds and requiring an AoW proc (and also using it up, therefore with opportunity cost of a FoL), I can see them having decided it's finally ok to give ret an interrupt.


At first glance it's clearly aimed squarely at prot healing and prot dps arena builds, but I'd like to give them a little more credit than to think they'd be so foolish as to overlook its effects on ret, which is already in bad shape, and compounding a nerf to pve tanking in loh, particularly on pally tanks in 10 man that don't run with a pally healer.

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Now, if you've got something in mind for ret like that, it's all well and good. But ret pallies at this point are pretty much the farthest thing imaginable from "tankey." Your post in the healing forum seems to imply that you actually think rets are strong in some way. Reality shows that our dps spec is so bad it's outshined by going prot and giving up dmg for a whopping 3 second silence on a 30 second cooldown.

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Q u o t e:
Over time however they have contributed into making the paladin into a "one-man army," able to play offensively, defensively and heal without say the stance changing or shapeshifting or sometimes event talent specialization required of other classes.

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Death knights can possibly do this as is, and have offensive utility. Just sayin'...