I just think DP and DS need to share a cooldown, and HoP should not be able to cast on self. DP would not need forbearance anymore. LoH could be nerfed so that it does not need forbearance, or it could remain very strong and keep forbearance.

The problem they are having is that Paladins can chain too many cooldowns into themselves in quick succession.

With the above and a strong LoH with forbearance, you can use DP freely, it causes no interference with abilities except divine shield, and I don't think people will argue that you should be able to use DP AND DS.

It also makes a somewhat interesting choice.

You can use DP AND LoH on yourself. Or DS by itself. Which is better? Depends.

Paladins will still have plenty of useful mitigation/immunity tools, they just won't be able to use as many of them on themselves in a short period.

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Q u o t e:
I just think DP and DS need to share a cooldown, and HoP should not be able to cast on self. DP would not need forbearance anymore. LoH could be nerfed so that it does not need forbearance, or it could remain very strong and keep forbearance.

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Having too many abilities that are not usable on self can encourage over raid stacking of a class and kill alot of the fun of a class. I also don't want to see LoH get nerfed in how much it heals.

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Q u o t e:

Paladins will still have plenty of useful mitigation/immunity tools, they just won't be able to use as many of them on themselves in a short period.

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We are talking 2 minutes between using a damage reduction CD and using an immunity tool. I don't think that any class should have to wait that long between using a personal CD to do their job and a raid utility tool. It would be like asking druids to wait 2 mins between barkskins and battle resses or warriors to not be able to use shattering throw and shield wall within a certain time frame (rare but does happen).

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Q u o t e:
I just think DP and DS need to share a cooldown, and HoP should not be able to cast on self. DP would not need forbearance anymore. LoH could be nerfed so that it does not need forbearance, or it could remain very strong and keep forbearance.

The problem they are having is that Paladins can chain too many cooldowns into themselves in quick succession.

With the above and a strong LoH with forbearance, you can use DP freely, it causes no interference with abilities except divine shield, and I don't think people will argue that you should be able to use DP AND DS.

It also makes a somewhat interesting choice.

You can use DP AND LoH on yourself. Or DS by itself. Which is better? Depends.

Paladins will still have plenty of useful mitigation/immunity tools, they just won't be able to use as many of them on themselves in a short period.

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No other tanking class has a mechanic like forbearance. DK/Warrior tanks can chain to their hearts content, so i'm not sure why you would advocate a double-standard. Paladins are different because of PvP concerns for total immunity reasons, and so this issue needs to be solved with PvE in mind as well. Currently it feels very much like a PvP affecting PvE nerf, and a 'too bad pally tanks' being thrown in for good measure.

I dislike forbearance. It causes more problems than it solves and seems to be considered a 'catch-all' for PvP to PvE balance for paladins of any spec.

there is merit to the argument that a tank should be able to control their own cooldowns, and this argument should be irrespective of 'chaining'.

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Q u o t e:

Having too many abilities that are not usable on self can encourage over raid stacking of a class and kill alot of the fun of a class. I also don't want to see LoH get nerfed in how much it heals.




We are talking 2 minutes between using a damage reduction CD and using an immunity tool. I don't think that any class should have to wait that long between using a personal CD to do their job and a raid utility tool. It would be like asking druids to wait 2 mins between barkskins and battle resses or warriors to not be able to use shattering throw and shield wall within a certain time frame (rare but does happen).

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You have to remember that the only reason DP is what it is today is to be a tanking cooldown since DS drops agro. Before it was just a weaker version of DS, basically a lower rank, but one of those abilities that gets a different name at higher ranks (like lesser heal-->heal-->greater heal)

Using DP should say, "I'm a tank, I don't need an immunity. I need a damage reduction so the boss keeps hitting me."

So, if you just make it so that you can't chain DP into an immunity with a shared cooldown, you achieve the purpose without forbearance on DP. Tanks get a damage reduction cooldown, but you don't get a damage reduction cooldown on top of an immunity. You have to choose, based on whether you are a tank or not.

And making hand of protection non-self doesn't encourage raid stacking.

If you have two or more paladins, you could do the exact same things with a non-self HoP than with a self HoP. You just have them use it on each other instead of themselves. But the fact that it required two or more is what is important, the Paladin couldn't keep making himself invulnerable/hard to kill on his own. It had to be a team effort.

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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PLEASE DO THAT.

Ty GC, this is a much better solution.

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Q u o t e:

The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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This would make me immensely happy. I still don't like it causing forbearance given using Last Stand does not block a Warrior out of using Shield Wall (yes, I know that is a slightly different scenario, but you get my point), but I can live with just not using LoH on myself. I very rarely do this anyway.

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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Was my idea!

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Q u o t e:


Was my idea!

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Here's a cookie.

as usual, paladin problems get fixed before they ever hit live.

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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Good solution for both tanking as well as BGs (where most of the QQ about it comes from).

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Q u o t e:
as usual, paladin problems get fixed before they ever hit live.

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as usual, low level alt troll pipes in with a totally meaningless comment.

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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Yeah, in a serious business raid scenario it's not very useful since you're getting bombarded with ridiculous amounts of heals every second anyway- if you're low and you use it, it's probably just going to turn the two holy light crits that come in the next second into overheal. For pally tanks LoH is pretty much just a "these guys aren't hitting very hard but my healers are asleep at the wheel/out of range/dead" button.

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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you might as well just delete it then. i wouldn't use it as holy (prevents using wings when i divine plea) or ret (prevents wings) or prot (duh)

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Q u o t e:
The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

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This is a fine solution. Thanks. :)

A fitting solution for sure. It's still a loss but a manageable one for sure.

Also Gingery, I just wanted to tell you that we Paladins support you. I know when you were but a wee level 1 that some deranged person mumbling about the "Will of Light" may have been inappropriate to you in places you don't want to mention. But we wanted you to know, it wasn't a Paladin but a deranged hobo named Paladin. Please don't bear us any ill will.

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Q u o t e:
you might as well just delete it then. i wouldn't use it as holy (prevents using wings when i divine plea) or ret (prevents wings) or prot (duh)

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Try reading it again, and it should make more sense to you.

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Q u o t e:

Paladin qq is the Blue Label of qq, and gets results. I think thats 2 nerfs qqed out of existence in under a week. I understand alot of people play paladins, i just wish the bias wasnt so obvious.

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LOL. There were complaints because the changes were stupid, not because they were changes to Paladin. If LoH applying forbearance locked Warriors out of Shield Wall, Druids out of Barkskin and Death Knights out of Icebound Fortitude, you would have seen one massive influx of complaints.

Stop trolling kthx.