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Q u o t e:


WOOOOSH

It was a joke ...

CALM DOWN NERD

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Dry your tears, sunshine.

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Q u o t e:


Dry your tears, sunshine.

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I try daily to drown myself in my own tears. It's not working...
Stupid Unending Breath.



Please take a toaster bath, cupcake.

first? who cares...

GC, would it be possable to let the infernal do more damage. At the moment we lose our current pet which is a dps loss, so to compensate could we get the infernal to do more dps or aoe dps for fights like anub? I know we wont be able to keep our current pet and might be changed in the future but can we make this pet viable again?

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I am pretty certain you guys are driving crazy the warlocks who actually want to discuss pets in this thread. Why don’t you let them instead of trying to use it as your moment in the spotlight to air all your grievances?

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Amen to that. It's rare enough that the Infernal and Doomguard get any airtime with or without GC's comments.

I still find it frustrating, as a Demo lock, that the two 'bonus' demons we have in our arsenal are actually counterproductive to use in the spec that you would think should benefit most from them.

As frustrating as it is (mildly so) to lose your minion in exchange for a minute or fifteen of another demon's time, I could easily eat that inconvenience if i didn't also lose a couple hundred spellpower and other buffs from the talents that no longer apply.

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Q u o t e:


Let me debunk two of your myths here.

We didn't like the way Affliction played. There were players who liked having so many dots and players who didn't. It certainly wasn't the case that whoever QQ'd the most won (and I suspect it was the pro dot crowd who QQ'd the most). We wanted to make Affliction more about the Shadow spells and Destruction more about the Fire spells. We wanted each to have a core group of spells upon which they focused. That is happening now and I believe both specs are fun to play.

The John Madden thing for Feral is not an excuse to let their dps be high. The actual point is that there is a wide margin between theoretical Feral dps as told by a simulator and actual Feral dps. We balance around the real numbers, not the theoretical maxima. Feral druids do great on bosses that don't require any movement or re-targeting. There are plenty of bad druids too, just as there are plenty of bad warlocks.



Fair enough, but we're more likely to patch the cinematic than we are to change a class just because the cinematic promised you a pony^H^H^H^H demon.

We thought "difficult to control" would be a good cost to pay for "very powerful demon." We also thought it fit the kit of the warlock having to struggle to harness the demon's power. Guess what? We were wrong. It wasn't a fun implementation. We could easily change the spell to summon an army of Infernals, but they would all be individually weak. That's how numbers work.

I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3. If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much. :)

I am pretty certain you guys are driving crazy the warlocks who actually want to discuss pets in this thread. Why don’t you let them instead of trying to use it as your moment in the spotlight to air all your grievances?

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Because the CD on the infernal and doomguard are largely irrelevant to the class. It doesn't matter if you make the CD 24 hrs, or 2 min, its still a worthless pet, that we have to lose our current pet to use.

The guardian idea is the best and I hope it happens eventually.

We are bringing up grievances in this thread because you dont make any posts in any of the other relevant warlock threads. Warlock threat per second, vs dps, warlocks falling behind in raids, STILL the ToW and DP problem, are more pressing matters than the infernal.

The warlock community has been ideally left in the dark compared to other classes. It makes sense they would be surprised you responded to this thread instead of the million other well written ones.

But to remain on topic. My main concern with the INFERNO is the fact it lasts 1 minute while taking the place of your current demon.

Honestly why can't it be re-enslaved after the 1 min is up and remain for 10 mins if the warlock can pull it off? Enslave demon would get a decent buff and more action in PvP to boot.

Not to mention many warlocks would start using this, the problem was never the long CD it was the short duration and it taking a pet slot.

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Honestly why can't it be re-enslaved after the 1 min is up and remain for 10 mins if the warlock can pull it off? Enslave demon would get a decent buff and more action in PvP to boot.

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The main reason is that Enslave has been baselined and doesn't present itself as a useful dps tool because of the dps loss that the enslaved demon takes. Enslave Demon in its prime was only really good for crowd control and in Northrend that utility is pretty moot.

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I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3. If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much. :)

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Great, that's all I wanted to see. It just seems to make sense for the Infernal to be a DPS cooldown like a DK's Gargoyle. We can't use it as often, but we also don't have to spec into a certain tree and get it.

I don't mind the Doomguard desummoning my current pet because he has powerful abilities that border on OP when you couple them with a silence / seduce / intercept. However the Infernal is a perfect candidate for Guardian status...all you need him to do is attack hostile targets and burn everything around him. Looking forward to this change if it comes through.

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Q u o t e:

We are bringing up grievances in this thread because you dont make any posts in any of the other relevant warlock threads. Warlock threat per second, vs dps, warlocks falling behind in raids, STILL the ToW and DP problem, are more pressing matters than the infernal.

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I've learned during my time following these forums that if blues arent responding to legitimate issues regarding a certain class its because they dont have any answers to give. At least not ones ppl want to hear. In regards to warlocks, youre right, the blue info has be next to nothing and the ptr notes are getting slimmer and slimmer. If I had to guess all of Blizzard's warlock eggs, if you will, are in the Cataclysm basket. I wouldnt expect anything significant to be fixed for warlocks for 3.3. If they were planning to do it, we would have heard something by now. Its probably an issue where they dont want to interfere with any work they've already done for the expansion.

Id recommend that all warlocks that are concerned with the performance potential to start concentrating on gearing an alt. Dont completely abandon your lock, but get an alt in decent enough shape that you can get him/her into Icecrown just in case.

Personally Ive been doing weekend runs on my DK alt and can already out dps my "main" warlock that has a lot better gear. DK's are a great alternative to a warlock. They've already got the pet/guardian mechanic that GC's been hinting at for Cataclysm. They've got multiple dots that can easily be spread for fantastic aoe and every single one of the DK specs is totally viable. Spriests are another logical alternative. They have great aoe but suffer from the same problems as affliction. The long ramp up time makes them just as bad at switching targets as affliction, and judging by recent encounter designs, fights with adds and frequent target changes are here to stay.

If youre really that attached to your warlock, Id start familiarizing yourself with the demo tree if youre not already. The main reason to bring a lock next patch is going to be for DP and ISB, not their dps.

Please let the other classes be the real QQers. I really don't want it to be locks. I like to think of us all as "passionate" about our class and characters, not angry.

GC replies are good and never worthless. I know he doesn't make promises, but I'm more than sure he puts a lot of thought into things with all his dev pals.

This is a set of changes to pets that doesn't do a ton for us, why get so pissed? They changed a lot of pets, and they are at least looking at ours. I mean, I'm not gonna use him any more than I do now, and hope for more to come later, but if no change, I mean no nerf or real buff... then no anger?

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Fair enough, but we're more likely to patch the cinematic than we are to change a class just because the cinematic promised you a pony^H^H^H^H demon.

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You have to understand that some of us having been playing this class since day 1(my 1st lock was Undead, I rerolled for Orc racials BECAUSE of the pet love Wrath was handing out) and to see DK's get everything we've ever wanted makes us very frustrated. DK's get a guardian in Gargoyle (Infernal from Vanilla) and a spell that summons a lot of dead guys to fight for you (as seen in the intro. vanilla movie with infernals), all the while theget to retain their Ghoul. Warlocks are penalized. They get the best of all worlds. Different classes are different. I get that. It still does not feel right seeing these other classes getting the ability to summon 2-3 different types of pets at the same time.

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Q u o t e:
We thought "difficult to control" would be a good cost to pay for "very powerful demon." We also thought it fit the kit of the warlock having to struggle to harness the demon's power. Guess what? We were wrong. It wasn't a fun implementation. We could easily change the spell to summon an army of Infernals, but they would all be individually weak. That's how numbers work.

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I understand how numbers work, believe me I do. What I don't understand is why those numbers seem to always benefit everyone else, meanwhile providing Warlocks with little to no change at all. In this case (the infernal CD change), it will change nothing as the Warlocks of today will not cast an Infernal in any situation. It's just not practical.

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Q u o t e:
I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3. If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much. :)

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That's great news!!!! I never expected any of this in 3.3. I've been advocating something like this for a very long time. Not seeing it in 3.3 won't break my heart at all and I am extremely happy that you guys are even considering this. YAAAY FOR GC AND COMPANY!!!!. Not seeing it at Cataclysm launch might make me a little teary eyed, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Hats off to you for "looking into it."

You can put the Inferno CD back to 60 minutes Ghostcrawler. I doubt that Warlocks would even care. I know I wouldn't. With the Felhunter, the Felguard, and the Imp having such good synergy with their respective trees, who needs an Infernal? Dk's, Shaman .. they are all cheering. Warlocks, well, we're saying "meh."

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Q u o t e:
I am pretty certain you guys are driving crazy the warlocks who actually want to discuss pets in this thread. Why don’t you let them instead of trying to use it as your moment in the spotlight to air all your grievances?

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If I want a moment in the spotlight, I'll simply go to Blizzcon and run across the stage naked with "BUFF WARLOCK INFERNALS, NERDS" written across my backside.

Are we alone in thinking we're "abandoned by the devs?" Certainly not. Just try and throw us a freakin' bone every now and again, will ya?


Thank you for your response and time sir.

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Q u o t e:
I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image.

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DO IT!


P.S. When you do it, move the Doomguard's abilities over to the Felguard so Demonology doesn't gimp itself by having the Felguard out over the Felhunter. Demonology would finally be a force to reckon with in PvP. =)

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Q u o t e:




We thought "difficult to control" would be a good cost to pay for "very powerful demon." We also thought it fit the kit of the warlock having to struggle to harness the demon's power. Guess what? We were wrong. It wasn't a fun implementation. We could easily change the spell to summon an army of Infernals, but they would all be individually weak. That's how numbers work.

I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3. If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much. :)

I am pretty certain you guys are driving crazy the warlocks who actually want to discuss pets in this thread. Why don’t you let them instead of trying to use it as your moment in the spotlight to air all your grievances?

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A) Yea i see your point, hence why aotd is essentially weak in their HP pools, but the fact is, those armies do ALOT more dmg than that one infernal, simply because of how many times they can hit a target b4 they all die. where as the infernal has low armor, suvivability and hes a massive "Kill Me" pinata. To have an army of infernals, would in all cases be a pure dps increase on the short CD. especially if able to use in bgs (and possibly arena?) if castable while stunned this could be a one way ticket to helping warlocks avoid going from 100>0 in stuns and nukes while locked out. Would be comparable to thunderstorm, castable while stunned and give the lock time to escape, where as of now, we lack that capability.

B) im getting quite tired of seeing derailers and complainers on their lvl 1-10 alts. If they dont post constructively, you should just temp ban them each time. It gotten so out of hand i no longer find it even interesting to post concerns when the rest of the community shrugs it off and gamer lingoes off all the insults ever said to them in their entire lifetime simple because the topic holds no concern for them, or is a direct thought to helping a class with them in specificity.

Heres hoping this thread continues, and GC please, remove the posts that hold no bounds, you could shave off nearly 5 pages of this beautiful thread =)

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Q u o t e:


I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3.

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Do eet. I COMMAND YOU!

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The way the current technology works is you can have one pet or many guardians. Pets have a pet bar and guardians do not. We get around the first limitation on group pets like the shaman wolves by having them both use the same pet bar.

It wouldn't be too hard to make a guardian Doomguard or Infernal pop out without replacing the Imp or Felhound etc. but then you'd lose the ability to give it specific commands. Having a second pet bar pop out or having one pet bar give different commands to different pets is something we currently can't do.

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Woo! Blue reply!


I personally agree with much of the sentiment in the thread: Infernal as Guardian = Good. Doomguard as Guardian = Ehhhhh?

The Doomguard's Cripple and Stomp are really handy and so is his Dispell even if his can't be set to auto-cast like the Felhunter's can. If the Doomguard becomes a Guardian, can he apply Cripple automatically to his target and spam Dispell on his target? I guess I'd be alright losing War Stomp, but it would make me a BIT sad.

Or you could just make Cripple a Warlock Spell. That'd be alright too!

Dang, I hate making posts at the bottom of a page; they never get read.

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Let me debunk two of your myths here.

We didn't like the way Affliction played. There were players who liked having so many dots and players who didn't. It certainly wasn't the case that whoever QQ'd the most won (and I suspect it was the pro dot crowd who QQ'd the most). We wanted to make Affliction more about the Shadow spells and Destruction more about the Fire spells. We wanted each to have a core group of spells upon which they focused. That is happening now and I believe both specs are fun to play.

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While off-topic, I felt this was worth responding to. Though you guys have made the design decision to label Affliction as a Shadow spec moreso than a DoT spec, the reality doesn't fit the ideal.

Affliction is a DoT spec, because you've made the DoTs in Affliction strong, Corruption in particular. That has its ramifications: you had no choice but to balance the stronger DoTs with weaker burst, which already complicates things given how designers must make target-switching gimmicks to keep DPS and tanks engaged. In addition, DoTs have been fraught with scaling problems that's plagued us since Classic, though I see you're working on that.

I think that you guys shifted from "DoTs" to "Shadow" when you realized that the easiest way for you guys to make up for the disadvantages of DoTs within the tree, is to make its nukes stronger. Of course, you can't do that to an effective degree while we still have those strong DoTs...that's the Catch-22.

If you really want to make the tree about Shadow, and believe me that's the last direction I want the spec to go, then nerf its DoT synergy and buff its nuke component. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you guys have an easier time balancing Fire versus Arcane than Affliction versus Destruction.

Personally, what initially lured me to this class was its focus on debuffs, and I envisioned it to be a sort of reverse-Resto druid. Destruction's maniacal burst is fun in its own way, but I would have loved to change it up for a subtler, intricate playstyle of Affliction.

As another aside, though, UA was chained with Immolate due to similar durations, and Siphon Life's 30 second cooldown made it the easiest DoT to keep up. If your design goal was to make the system more manageable, syncing Siphon Life's duration with CoA's, and allowing Corruption to be refreshed by Shadow Bolts would have done wonders...as would have 1-second tick Drain Souls, or Drain Soul DoT refreshes.

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Q u o t e:

I think there is some promise to the idea that warlocks might have permanent pets and guardians, with the Doomguard and Infernal as dps-timers in the second category, much like Force of Nature or Mirror Image. But we're going to have to think through that design and analyze the technical and balance implications. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but it isn't going to happen for 3.3. If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much. :)

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The cooldown isn't so much the issue as the spell itself. It's just not worth using; if you had a spell that set off fireworks for 2g on a 15-minute cooldown, then lowered it to 10 minutes, it'd essentially be the same thing. There's a certain novelty to it, but when it comes to positively affecting raid performance, it does very little, so why use it?

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If you'd like, we can bump the Inferno cooldown back up if it bothers you so much.

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Heck with him! Let me make the call! Listen to me, not him!