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Q u o t e:


I didn't say sometime during the fight. I said while tanking. While you have some mob or another trying to gouge your eyes out and skull%$# you.

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The opertunity to take a few seconds off from tanking the boss and BR or innervate happens orders of magnitude more often than the ability to disarm or spell reflect.

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Q u o t e:


I didn't say sometime during the fight. I said while tanking. While you have some mob or another trying to gouge your eyes out and skull%$# you.

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Fair enough.

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Paladins outscale warrior in naxx 25 gear. NAXX 25. The base health argument is a red herring if ever there was one.

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You also forget about guns, which keeps warriors close to paladins health level. And before you argue otherwise, even with all this theorycrafting, people were able to show that warriors and DK and paladins almost share the same amount of HP with best in slot gear and fully buffed. So why don't you guys stop with the bull*%!# that paladins have a huge lead on warriors with HP, when we don't.

We have equal avoidance, we have equal health or close to it, we have equal armor. The only difference is we block every attack which counts to our EH, while warriors don't, but they can block for more then paladins but doesn't count to their EH. But guess what like it or not, it does count to balance.

You see alot of you guys only look at HP, armor and paladin block and AD and talk about how our EH is higher and therefore tank balance is off. But add in that warrior can block as well, and block for more just not as often, add that warriors have shield wall and last stand and in ulduar have the 4 piece bonus tier 8 set (though only for magical fights) and then you will notice that things aren't out of balance as much as people believe it to be.

Same for DKs, they have many more cooldowns they can use to compensate for the fact of having less EH. Same for druids, they have more EH to compensate for the lack of better cooldowns compared to the 3 other tanking classes. The only thing warriors would need survivability wise would be to have Shield wall be more like divine protection (meaning it should be at 50% damage reduction from talents without needing a glyph for it) and possibly give them there 4 pc tier 8 set bonus as a talent in the prot tree. There EH will still be behind paladins, but now they will have 3 CDs to use while we still only have 2 and one of them is not even under our control (not that it's a bad thing).

Also alot of you talk about how AD is always up so it's better then Last Stand. The difference is that it's not always active. Just because it's always there for us to use, doesn't mean it's always being used. Yes it gives us more stability in a sense of something we can rely on to fall back on. But if we never need to use it, or rarely need to use it, then we're not really getting any benefits from it. Other then northrend beasts, I haven't really had a need for AD.

And even on norhtrend beasts, all AD would allow me is to eat one more hit, after that either a melee swing or a tick from the impale would kill me anyways. Being able to take one more hit then our warrior tank or druid tank or dk tank hasn't allowed me to be vastly superior to all other tanks. So far from my experience I have died just as quick as our other tanks, I maybe lasted 1 or 2 sec more. But you're not going to convince me that because I can last 1 or 2 sec more is gamebreaking when it comes to tank balance.

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Q u o t e:


Side note: A druid tank can BR on every fight, if required.

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Bears are nothing but last resort for druid utility, every other spec trumps them across the board (often by a huge margin) except for tree w/ FF.

Bear utility itself is complete garbage

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Ok, have to call you on this one. AD is NOT a stam increase. it's a DR increase. Since DR is multiplicative, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the percentage from AD, it's more like 19.3% DR with AD included.

Edit: oh, and what you're missing isn't as easily quantifiable. It's the debuffs we put up on the target to reduce damage, Vindication and Demoralizing shout.

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Gonna have to call you on this. DR is viewed as 100% uptime generally(i know DK's Blade barrier sucks and should have a longer duration then 10 seconds). AD is not active 100% and therefore averaging it out for DR although mathmatically is the same thing as modeling it as hp, conceptually isnt as accurate. Viewing it as adding HP in EH calcs is the best way to actually model it.

This leads more to the fact that paladins Stamina scaling is massively higher then other plate tanks and needs to reduced(or others increase), not that DR needs to be nerfed.

Removing the 8% from sacred duty would be a good start, although does it affect the omg 45k hp unbuffed epeen flexing. Another move could be to just remove AD damage reduction completely.

However give druids state Id much rather see dks and warriors recieve buffs then pallies(and druids) recieve nerfs. I dont expect carbon copies of EH for each class but tweaking should be in order.

Overall about EH, it is a great measure of a tanks ability to absorb worst case 2-3 shot damage(bosses hitting for ~28+). The difference between 2 shot and 3 shot tank deaths is 100% longer in duration(pure normal melee hits), and much MUCH longer in duration when tanks can survive instant+melee, having this room is massive for healers.

EH differences of 10% or more should be addressed.

PS i know EH its not the only thing when taking damage(blocks/cd's/avoidence) or in regards to tank buffs/debuffs/utility, but it definitly makes a large difference on things like icehowl and Anub'arak heroic, especially running with okay players, that arent robots and sometimes have lag/latency issues.

PPS With the avoidance nerf in icecrown hopefully 2 shots will never come into play with an appropriately geared tank, if they do and the boss is high on the difficulty/progression list, expect more people referencing EH, given current imbalances.

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Q u o t e:

You also forget about guns, which keeps warriors close to paladins health level. And before you argue otherwise, even with all this theorycrafting, people were able to show that warriors and DK and paladins almost share the same amount of HP with best in slot gear and fully buffed. So why don't you guys stop with the bull*%!# that paladins have a huge lead on warriors with HP, when we don't.

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You lose.

insert coin?

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Q u o t e:

You also forget about guns, which keeps warriors close to paladins health level. And before you argue otherwise, even with all this theorycrafting, people were able to show that warriors and DK and paladins almost share the same amount of HP with best in slot gear and fully buffed. So why don't you guys stop with the bull*%!# that paladins have a huge lead on warriors with HP, when we don't.

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You're running on old news. And any comparison has always included guns.

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Q u o t e:
You also forget about guns, which keeps warriors close to paladins health level. And before you argue otherwise, even with all this theorycrafting, people were able to show that warriors and DK and paladins almost share the same amount of HP with best in slot gear and fully buffed. So why don't you guys stop with the bull*%!# that paladins have a huge lead on warriors with HP, when we don't.

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Our 245 gun slot gives ~640 hit points. This leaves us about 2-2.5k hit points behind an equally geared paladin w/ raid buffs.

Until you have an end game warrior tank and until you understand our stamina scaling deficiencies, please stop commenting on us.

Nobody on Earth has been able to show Paladins and Warriors have similar hit point pools in end game raiding gear. Nobody. The reason why nobody can, is because it's not factual.

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Bears are nothing but last resort for druid utility, every other spec trumps them across the board (often by a huge margin) except for tree w/ FF.

Bear utility itself is complete garbage

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Nah, on a fight like Anub, you'd want your Bear tank to use his BR first because he cannot use it when Anub reemerges.

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High avoidance is important because it makes the bosses hit hard. If avoidance was nigh irrelevant then bosses would not need to hit harder. They hit harder because you are avoiding so much damage. I'm not sure how many other ways to say it. I'm not arguing you should gem parry, but I find the arguments that avoidance is irrelevant and only health matters to be specious.

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So now that you're taking away avoidance in ICC, what are you going to do about the health pool imbalance among the tanks?

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High avoidance is important because it makes the bosses hit hard. If avoidance was nigh irrelevant then bosses would not need to hit harder. They hit harder because you are avoiding so much damage. I'm not sure how many other ways to say it. I'm not arguing you should gem parry, but I find the arguments that avoidance is irrelevant and only health matters to be specious.

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Then why ignore the fact that Paladins have more health, more mitigation and more avoidance than Warriors?

At least if one tank had more avoidance than the other while the other had more EH, you could make that argument that it's balanced. But not when one tank trumpts the other in both categories.

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That's just not true. If you turned your back on a mob, your armor and health would not change. The boss would hit you a lot more. You would be a worse tank. If you could somehow remove all of your dodge and parry, you would take more damage.

I think what is happening here is that some of you are adhering too tightly to the guideline that since bosses can potentially two-shot you that avoidance is unreliable and health * armor is king. I understand that logic. But don't take it to the illogical conclusion that avoidance is irrelevant. If your 50-60% avoidance went to 0% you would notice quickly.

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Of course we'd notice it, but unfortunately, guilds want to build around known variables, and making sure the tank can survive those two hits is important. Your poorly balanced EH mechanics make it much much more difficult for two of the tanks to accomplish this goal for the fights that require it.

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Q u o t e:


That's just not true. If you turned your back on a mob, your armor and health would not change. The boss would hit you a lot more. You would be a worse tank. If you could somehow remove all of your dodge and parry, you would take more damage.

I think what is happening here is that some of you are adhering too tightly to the guideline that since bosses can potentially two-shot you that avoidance is unreliable and health * armor is king. I understand that logic. But don't take it to the illogical conclusion that avoidance is irrelevant. If your 50-60% avoidance went to 0% you would notice quickly.

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Finally. Thank you.

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Q u o t e:


Finally. Thank you.

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For what? Proving that you're more powerful in yet another vital aspect of tanking?

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Q u o t e:


For what? Proving that you're more powerful in yet another vital aspect of tanking?

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No, for a blue to finally come out with a logical argument that's simple enough for people to understand about tanking stat balancing. I'm not talking between classes, but within a single character.

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Q u o t e:


6. Figure out how to fix the threat nerfs that this change will cause before you send it to live or dk's will simply not be able to tank icc they will not have enough threat warriors will struggle and paladin will do one button macro happy fun dance and conquer

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and it's two buttons, damn it!