Wondering if we can get word on this, since this is what most consider the absolute key issue on tank balance; yes warriors and dks would like other things too, but the EH advantage enjoyed by Druids and Paladins is what's mostly worrying to us approaching Icecrown.

ToC didn't have many "EH focus" fights but odds are good that's the exception, looking at Ulduar and past raid zones with more than 4 tanked bosses, and most of them had ~1/3 or so EH focussed fights. Right now the EH difference is obvious and provable via math, and has been done so many times, so again, is this going to be looked at prior to 3.3's release, or are we going to let it "play out" and change it later if need be?

They're probably taking a wait-and-see approach on this, if at all, considering how tank EH / cooldown changes were generally made after the fact, as far as reactions to Sarth3D and Ulduar.

EH isn't everything, or even the most important thing currently.

By far. the biggest tanking imbalance in 3.2 is add tanking on H Anub25, which favors Warriors and Paladins.

No one would have predicted this at this point one major patch ago. No one can predict what will be the biggest tanking imbalance in ICC, or who it will favor.

Heck, avoidance could even be the hot new stat.

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Q u o t e:
EH isn't everything, or even the most important thing currently.

By far. the biggest tanking imbalance in 3.2 is add tanking on H Anub25, which favors Warriors and Paladins.

No one would have predicted this at this point one major patch ago. No one can predict what will be the biggest tanking imbalance in ICC, or who it will favor.

Heck, avoidance could even be the hot new stat.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have 102.4% avoidance+block, wouldn't BV count as EH too?

Edit for clarity

While part of EH, I think the microscope should be on Stam scaling. Considering the massive ilevels that icecrown is going to have, the discrepancies are only going to grow.

Yes, Paladins have 1.2k less HP naked, but that shouldnt mean that Paladins have 2k more HP geared and fully buffed. And I m already seeing that. With 264 gear that will jump to 3k at least.

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Q u o t e:
EH isn't everything, or even the most important thing currently.

By far. the biggest tanking imbalance in 3.2 is add tanking on H Anub25, which favors Warriors and Paladins.

No one would have predicted this at this point one major patch ago. No one can predict what will be the biggest tanking imbalance in ICC, or who it will favor.

Heck, avoidance could even be the hot new stat.

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It can be predicted, quite easily in fact.

If an encounter hinges on adds dealing damage in little chunks, then wars/pallies will rule those fights.

If an encounter hinges on taking massive, unavoidable blows then pallies/druids will be on top.

If an encounter hinges on taking a 1 shot hit with cd's regularly then dk's will... wait.

From there it's just a matter of which fights are tuned so tight that you need a certain tank, like with H anubs adds.

The only way avoidance will make a come back is if there is some killer debuff or strike that can be avoided. However, that is highly unlikely since they've been making all those special attacks unavoidable.

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Q u o t e:
Wondering if we can get word on this, since this is what most consider the absolute key issue on tank balance; yes warriors and dks would like other things too, but the EH advantage enjoyed by Druids and Paladins is what's mostly worrying to us approaching Icecrown.

ToC didn't have many "EH focus" fights but odds are good that's the exception, looking at Ulduar and past raid zones with more than 4 tanked bosses, and most of them had ~1/3 or so EH focussed fights. Right now the EH difference is obvious and provable via math, and has been done so many times, so again, is this going to be looked at prior to 3.3's release, or are we going to let it "play out" and change it later if need be?

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Lets let it play out till middle of Icecrown.

Then make a comment about hard modes being tanked by warriors.

Say things need to be addressed, but look forward to the changes in cataclysm!

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Q u o t e:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have 102.4% avoidance+block, wouldn't BV count as EH too?

Edit for clarity

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Not when you're Impaled still and get breathed on by a worm or stunned by Icehowl or Frozen Slashed by Anub'arak etc. etc.

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Q u o t e:
EH isn't everything, or even the most important thing currently.

By far. the biggest tanking imbalance in 3.2 is add tanking on H Anub25, which favors Warriors and Paladins.

No one would have predicted this at this point one major patch ago. No one can predict what will be the biggest tanking imbalance in ICC, or who it will favor.

Heck, avoidance could even be the hot new stat.

---

ToC is an aberration when it comes to raids; it's not a proper Dungeon, it's only 4 regular bosses and a "PVP" encounter. Of those bosses 2 are coordination/healer checks (Jaraxxus and Twins), 1 has, frankly, completely broken and unbalanced mechanics that favor a weird spec and gearset for warriors and a Druid MT, and NRB is a combo EH+dps check. So 1/4 has an EH check there.

But looking at history, here's some examples of fights that tested tanks effective health:

Ulduar EH checks: Iron Council, Thorim, Algalon, Vezax, Yogg. Arguably XT, Hodir, Ignis but we'll not count them.
5/14 bosses=EH check, roughly 30%.

Naxxramas EH checks: Patchwerk, Faerlina, Maexxna. Could have easily counted more as EH checks from the level 60 version but again we'll be conservative.
3/15 bosses=EH check, 20%

Sunwell EH checks: Kalegos, Brutallus(!!!!!), Felmyst, M'uru.
4/6 bosses= EH check, 66%

Black Temple EH checks: Naj'entus, Supremus, Gorefiend, Bloodboil, Mother Shaharaz, Council, Illidan.
7/9 bosses=EH check, 77%.

We could keep going with Hyjal, SSC/TK, and others, but the point should be clear. The pattern of EH fights is at least one-third of most dungeon fights, and it goes up dramatically for "end of expansion" dungeons (noone expects things to hit softly in them). So while it's still techically a guess that there'll be a fair number of EH based hard modes in Icecrown, it's a "guess" backed up by plenty of precedent and history.

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Q u o t e:


ToC is an aberration when it comes to raids; it's not a proper Dungeon, it's only 4 regular bosses and a "PVP" encounter. Of those bosses 2 are coordination/healer checks (Jaraxxus and Twins), 1 has, frankly, completely broken and unbalanced mechanics that favor a weird spec and gearset for warriors and a Druid MT, and NRB is a combo EH+dps check. So 1/4 has an EH check there.

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Translation: Reality is wrong

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Q u o t e:

But looking at history, here's some examples of fights that tested tanks effective health:

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By looking at history you mean blatantly lying and/or grossly over exaggerating EH.

Most of the fight you listed are not stack stam to the roof, they are get HP to X, armor to Y then stack avoidance to the roof.

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Q u o t e:


Look at it this way:

Which encoutner in TOGC is an "avoidance" encounter? I mean, if EH is less important you assume the by relationship avoidance is more important? That simply isn't the case.


Beasts - EH encounter.

Jaraxxus - LOL ENCOUNTER? Seriously, I do this in a defense capped set with more dps gear on than tank gear, it's just not a check on the tank in any way shape or form.

Faction Champs - I guess you can tank pets. What is the point though? This is more about utilies like interrupts, cc's, snares, or your capability to off-spec dps or heal.

Valks - Avoidance will help you how much with all that spell damage? Easily threat and EH trump it.

Anub - This is a red-herring. It is literally one of the ONLY encounters in the game with a tanking role that champions avoidance at the price of EH, and that is for the add tanks. ANNND, since there are currently only 2 classes capable of even fulfilling the role, it's not worth discussion right now. Anub tank himself wants massive EH and some NR gear if he can get it.

SO, explain to me again how reality says anything other than: avoidance is crap except for unhittable sets for anub adds?

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You do realize he listed of tons more fights than just what was in ToC, several of which that were completely wrong.

NRB is the only fight in ToC where stam stacking matters (and even then you could argue cooldowns are better), its either pointless or detrimental to do so for the other fights.

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Q u o t e:


You do realize he listed of tons more fights than just what was in ToC, several of which that were completely wrong.

NRB is the only fight in ToC where stam stacking matters (and even then you could argue cooldowns are better), its either pointless or detrimental to do so for the other fights.

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Wait..EH doesn't matter when MTing Anub?

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Q u o t e:


Translation: Reality is wrong

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No, reality is deviating from the past patterns. Unless you think that raids with 4 tankable bosses and no trash are going to be the norm, calling it an aberration isn't wrong. The only raid even similiar to ToC's setup is Hyjal.

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Q u o t e:


By looking at history you mean blatantly lying and/or grossly over exaggerating EH.

Most of the fight you listed are not stack stam to the roof, they are get HP to X, armor to Y then stack avoidance to the roof.

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Of course you can eventually outgear any fight, and as you say, stack EH to a target and then worry about avoidance/threat. But all of those fights when you first encountered them/did the hardmode were fairly big tanking checks; if you only go with the "disney" version of Naxxramas I suppose you have an argument there but that's a case of a dungeon being undertuned, not a fight that was originally designed as an EH test.

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Q u o t e:


Look at it this way:

Which encoutner in TOGC is an "avoidance" encounter? I mean, if EH is less important you assume the by relationship avoidance is more important? That simply isn't the case.


Beasts - EH encounter.

Jaraxxus - LOL ENCOUNTER? Seriously, I do this in a defense capped set with more dps gear on than tank gear, it's just not a check on the tank in any way shape or form.

Faction Champs - I guess you can tank pets. What is the point though? This is more about utilies like interrupts, cc's, snares, or your capability to off-spec dps or heal.

Valks - Avoidance will help you how much with all that spell damage? Easily threat and EH trump it.

Anub - This is a red-herring. It is literally one of the ONLY encounters in the game with a tanking role that champions avoidance at the price of EH, and that is for the add tanks. ANNND, since there are currently only 2 classes capable of even fulfilling the role, it's not worth discussion right now. Anub tank himself wants massive EH and some NR gear if he can get it.

SO, explain to me again how reality says anything other than: avoidance is crap except for unhittable sets for anub adds?

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So let's see. By your logic, of the five end game encounters, one is an EH fight, two don't matter, one is mixed, and one is avoidance. Therefore, we'll throw out the one that doesn't support your position as a red-herring. Got it.

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Q u o t e:



So let's see. By your logic, of the five end game encounters, one is an EH fight, two don't matter, one is mixed, and one is avoidance. Therefore, we'll throw out the one that doesn't support your position as a red-herring. Got it.

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Well only 4 can even be looked at.

And Twin's is good for EH because a large portion of the damage is magic. Especially if someone fails and explodes something to close to a tank.

Anub is an EH fight when tanking Anub.

Gormok is an EH fight too because you need to be able to eat the spike damage. Also you need to be able to eat a Headbutt+normal swing on Ice howl too.

When attacks aren't avoidable which aren't in ToC EH wins.

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Q u o t e:

No, reality is deviating from the past patterns. Unless you think that raids with 4 tankable bosses and no trash are going to be the norm, calling it an aberration isn't wrong. The only raid even similiar to ToC's setup is Hyjal.

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Maybe cause your "pattern" is garbage and not actually based on anything but your own useless EH WARBARGGABLE

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Q u o t e:

Of course you can eventually outgear any fight, and as you say, stack EH to a target and then worry about avoidance/threat. But all of those fights when you first encountered them/did the hardmode were fairly big tanking checks; if you only go with the "disney" version of Naxxramas I suppose you have an argument there but that's a case of a dungeon being undertuned, not a fight that was originally designed as an EH test.

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Wrong again. Several of the fights you claimed as EH tests where anything but.

All you did is list a bunch of random fights, ignore their mechanics and just called them EH tests to try and prove a point.

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Q u o t e:

And Twin's is good for EH because a large portion of the damage is magic. Especially if someone fails and explodes something to close to a tank.

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Wrong, your melee will have long since died making the DPS check impossible before that becomes an issue.

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Q u o t e:

Anub is an EH fight when tanking Anub.

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Wrong. There is a hard limit to where more stam == bad. More armor and/or NR is always good.

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Q u o t e:

Gormok is an EH fight too because you need to be able to eat the spike damage. Also you need to be able to eat a Headbutt+normal swing on Ice howl too.

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That's the only fight in there where more stam == good

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Q u o t e:
So let's see. By your logic, of the five end game encounters, one is an EH fight, two don't matter, one is mixed, and one is avoidance. Therefore, we'll throw out the one that doesn't support your position as a red-herring. Got it.

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Anub is an extremely odd fight in all of WoW's history. It heavily favors shield tanks for the adds and high EH on the boss tank. You don't actually stack Avoidance on Anub if you are tanking the adds, you stack block stats. This is really the only fight in WoW's history that I can think of that basically forces you to gear for block. It is not a much of a stretch to call it an aberration.

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Q u o t e:


Anub is an extremely odd fight in all of WoW's history. It heavily favors shield tanks for the adds and high EH on the boss tank. You don't actually stack Avoidance on Anub if you are tanking the adds, you stack block stats. This is really the only fight in WoW's history that I can think of that basically forces you to gear for block. It is not a much of a stretch to call it an aberration.

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Maybe because its not actually an EH fight....