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Q u o t e:

Q: Crowd control is all but dead in raids. Is that something you plan on bringing back?
A: Like say... with the Faction Champions encounter in ToC? ;]

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<snide>You mean the fight were all CC is cut down to PvP levels and subject to diminshing returns, becoming essentially useless?</snide>

In all seriousness, our 10 man guild had the most success *after* we abandoned trying to CC and went for the fast burn instead. CC is not and has not been alive in raids or dungeons this entire expansion.

I think its a shame, too. It really added another dimension to runs instead of "tank, heal and burn"

Remember when every group needs a mage, or a lock? Those days are over, thank god. Now it's easier than ever to form groups without looking for a specific mage or a lock, unless you way out gear the heroic dungeon.

CC are still being used in PVP, which I think that's where they belong. It is also not entirely dead, you still CC certain trash mobs (banish in ulduar). I'm sure future fights will require CC.

In short, easy mode is easy. Gratz on clearing 10 man normal mode. CC is not dead.

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Q u o t e:
Remember when every group needs a mage, or a lock? Those days are over, thank god. Now it's easier than ever to form groups without looking for a specific mage or a lock, unless you way out gear the heroic dungeon.

CC are still being used in PVP, which I think that's where they belong. It is also not entirely dead, you still CC certain trash mobs (banish in ulduar). I'm sure future fights will require CC.

In short, easy mode is easy. Gratz on clearing 10 man normal mode. CC is not dead.

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Bring back TBC CC levels, i miss being noticed as a good hunter because i could CC as well as a mage or Lock but my CC lasted less time and wasn't targetable.

I miss Kiting as a Viable PvE strat.

A lot of the difficulty of Trash has been gutted, and I for one was kinda sad to see it go, cause AoE spam trash is on the oppisite end of trash that needed Sheep Spamming.

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Q u o t e:
Remember when every group needs a mage, or a lock? Those days are over, thank god. Now it's easier than ever to form groups without looking for a specific mage or a lock, unless you way out gear the heroic dungeon.

CC are still being used in PVP, which I think that's where they belong. It is also not entirely dead, you still CC certain trash mobs (banish in ulduar). I'm sure future fights will require CC.

In short, easy mode is easy. Gratz on clearing 10 man normal mode. CC is not dead.

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not really... you dont need to CC them trash mobs.

my paladin is 10 man uld/Toc geared.

I faceroll tank thru 25 uld even on them trash mobs.

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Q u o t e:




Bring back TBC CC levels, i miss being noticed as a good hunter because i could CC as well as a mage or Lock but my CC lasted less time and wasn't targetable.

I miss Kiting as a Viable PvE strat.

A lot of the difficulty of Trash has been gutted, and I for one was kinda sad to see it go, cause AoE spam trash is on the oppisite end of trash that needed Sheep Spamming.

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This.

<snip rambling>

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Q u o t e:
There will be trash.

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I don't miss it at all.

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Q u o t e:
Not many people were skipping CC for Ulduar when it first launched. Now if you're overgearing content, you're overgearing content. ToC doesn't have trash, though if you are ignoring CC for heroic champs, I'd be interesting in seeing it. Yes, the CC has PvP-like DR, but that makes smart CC an even bigger component of the fight, not something to be ignored lightly. Icecrown is a traditional yet massive and epic instance. There will be trash.

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Can it be as brutal as Tempest Keep trash was when the instance was first released? Or as brutal as Sunwell trash was :P

Can you also have trash epics that are actually good like there was in Sunwell? Only if the trash is hard ofc.

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Q u o t e:
<snide>You mean the fight were all CC is cut down to PvP levels and subject to diminshing returns, becoming essentially useless?</snide>

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When you try the heroic modes, you'll understand why it is necessary to have good CC.

Blowing through the 10 man normal version might give you a false sense of the relative difficulty of this encounter, though.

once they start making you CC, that's when every class has at least a Repentance like ability to match their awesome AoE dmg.

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Q u o t e:


<snide>You mean the fight were all CC is cut down to PvP levels and subject to diminshing returns, becoming essentially useless?</snide>

In all seriousness, our 10 man guild had the most success *after* we abandoned trying to CC and went for the fast burn instead. CC is not and has not been alive in raids or dungeons this entire expansion.

I think its a shame, too. It really added another dimension to runs instead of "tank, heal and burn"

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Adding "repeat" is not a very deep dimension. I long ago grew tired of keeping targets infinitely locked down with a single fire and forget spell until it's their turn in the 25 v 1 tank & spank. Maybe you could make them more interesting if CC durations were permanently nerfed across the board, but until then I say keep CC dead as long as possible. At least in AOE fests, there a different spell selection involved.

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Q u o t e:
Not many people were skipping CC for Ulduar when it first launched. Now if you're overgearing content, you're overgearing content. ToC doesn't have trash, though if you are ignoring CC for heroic champs, I'd be interesting in seeing it. Yes, the CC has PvP-like DR, but that makes smart CC an even bigger component of the fight, not something to be ignored lightly. Icecrown is a traditional yet massive and epic instance. There will be trash.

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CC in Ulduar consists of banishing the golem adds in the halway leading to IC/Kolo and banishing trees in freya's room. Honestly, more thought is put into not AoEing certain packs of adds than that. If ICC is the same CC still won't be an interesting component.

Im hoping for trash like Black temple.

-SW

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Q u o t e:
once they start making you CC, that's when every class has at least a Repentance like ability to match their awesome AoE dmg.

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Wasn't that already done in the name of 5mans while levelling? Shamans got Hex, for instance. Although the irony there is they got it at 80.

CCs been dead in 5 mans since the expansion was released, because the content was never that challenging even for people in greens and blues (though you can still wipe, even in 245/258 gear, every now and then if people pull stupid !#%! and pull too many mobs). It was all made too easy.

Ulduar trash, also, never really required CC with the exception of trash on the way to Vezax, and it took only a few weeks before guilds just started AOEing that, too.

In ICC they've got an opportunity to bring back Fearing, Banishing, Seducing, Shackling, Polymorphing, Hexing, Cycloning, Sapping, Freeze Trapping, Repentencing and so on. Let's see how they handle it.

you dont even need to banish the golem adds.
when it first launched, we just AoE'd em down, with a rogue to kick the iron mender and single target DPS to focus on golem.

: /

if blizz really wants to bring CC back into raids, they need to make npcs able to CC people effectively.
like have npcs sheep heals or silence healers, and have trash pulls have 3 mobs capable of doing that.

I remember back in BC, getting repent was a god send. No longer would I be shunned from five mans for lack of a viable CC! No longer would I have a hard time getting a group for H:MGT because I could CC just as well as a mage!

Then WOTLK hit... I no longer needed CC for 5 mans. It was heartbreaking. For years, I had pined away for a viable CC, then I finally got it, and then the necessity of it vanished!

Setting up CC in 5 mans was one of my favorite parts of the game. It took knowledge of the instance, and was a skill that made tanks stand out. I remember one of the hardest parts of becoming a tank was actually learning the pulls. Knowing the pulls, the different CCs to use on different targets, and coordinating them all together in a quick, efficent manner was a beautiful thing.

AOE spam and 10-15 minute heroics is sad, and really detracts from the 5 man experience in my opinion. 5 Mans need to be more difficult than they are, since they are what new raiders learn to play their class in. The death of 5 man difficulty, and the new badge format make it hard to assess player skill/knowledge level and cheapens the overall experience of the end-game.

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Q u o t e:
once they start making you CC, that's when every class has at least a Repentance like ability to match their awesome AoE dmg.

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MONTHS BEHIND

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Q u o t e:
though if you are ignoring CC for heroic champs, I'd be interesting in seeing it.

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My 10-man raid group's only victory on heroic champs came when we mostly abandoned CC and went for a fast burn with heroism and divine sacrifice. When we've tried to use CC, we wind up decreasing our own effectiveness more than the enemy's.

When we learned the fight on normal mode we assigned tanks to lock down the melee DPS, but that's much less effective once the enemies become untauntable.

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Q u o t e:


<snide>You mean the fight were all CC is cut down to PvP levels and subject to diminshing returns, becoming essentially useless?</snide>

In all seriousness, our 10 man guild had the most success *after* we abandoned trying to CC and went for the fast burn instead. CC is not and has not been alive in raids or dungeons this entire expansion.

I think its a shame, too. It really added another dimension to runs instead of "tank, heal and burn"

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Yeah, a 1.5 second cast time spell every minute on your focus target adds such a massive dimension to raiding.

/sarcasm