I'm really surprised at the lack of debate or even the usual sky is falling outrage that appears on these forums.

I'm glad blizzard has addressed many of our itemization issues and that mp5 is now useful stat. However, librams are still an area where no progress has been made at all. Blizzard seems torn between attempting to make an original interesting sounding item and making it a practical upgrade.

The main problem here is Libram of Renewal off the original badge vendor. I picked this item up 6 days after the expansion went live and it's looking as if I'll be using it up until the next expansion. It reduces a significant mana cost off our most commonly used spell and it has great synergy with illumination due to the talent restoring base mana costs instead of the actual cost of the spell.

It wasn't that big of a deal when the naxx libram was far inferior. It's fairly common going between tiers of gear to keep a lower ilevel item with better itemization. However, then the Ulduar libram ended up being a slightly more powerful and an equally unimpressive version of the naxx libram. Paladins were now refusing to use a significantly higher ilevel drop off several raid zones later in favor of some thing bought from heroic badges. I really hope this raised some warning signs to blizzard.

We see another raid zone and a larger jump in ilevel then most raiders were expecting. Surely a 45 ilevel gap would be enough to put this issue to rest? Not even close. Libram of Veracity has no icd and a very high proc rate on our most commonly used spell. It has close to 100% uptime and it still isn't appealing.

This is the newest libram which, I believe, was datamined so it could be wildly inaccurate.

Your Holy Shock spell grants 85 spell power for 15 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.

I really love blizzard intentions here. They made a libram that has synergy with the tier 10 set bonuses. However, it's a very minor upgrade over the ToC libram that comes with a clumsy stacking mechanic that forces use of a lower HPS/HPM spell while holy light spamming. I doubt I'd use this libram over the ToC one, and I'm not even willing to use that libram.

A nerf to libram of renewal seems far more reasonable then a buff to every other libram in the game. This doesn't magically fix all of the issues with current and future libram itemization, but it's a needed start. The icecrown libram still needs some number tweaking to make it an actual upgrade.

In the burning crusade I used the Karazhan libram for pretty close to the entire expansion so this isn't an isolated incident. I'm glad that I'm not using Egan's blaster at level 80, but idols, librams, totems, and sigils are an area blizzard needs to improve on.

LoRenewal is simply too good and scales with gear. Its initial value with naxx10/25 gear is roughly ~150 mp5 ... you cast HL slower and have less mana to use HL.

In our first Twins25H kill I had ~2.2-2.3 HL casts per 5 seconds... so now the libram is worth 250 mp5.

You get the point, we were basically given an heirloom libram that scales with tiers of gear instead of your character's level.

I don't mind not having to spend the badges personally.

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I don't mind not having to spend the badges personally.

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After the next patch when a fresh level 80 paladin gets 25 badges of triumph from running heroics; doesn't it seem odd to you that he's best off trading them for emblems of conquest, then emblems of valor, then emblems of heroism to buy a best in slot libram?

Actual gear progression is worth the effort of farming additional badges.

Inc Libram of Renewal nerf, because the T10 Libram is pretty awful and nobody with half a brain is going to use it

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Actual gear progression is worth the effort of farming additional badges.

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The fact that I don't have to buy the holy libram progresses my ret gear.

As I said, LoRenewal scales with gear - if you want throughput for non-HL spam playstyle get the arena one. Now the fact that the BiS libram for a playstyle requires arena... that is a much more legitimate qq.

The T10 is meh for HL builds, would be solid for a FoL build. For HL, our only concern is having the mana to cast it to the encounters end. With HL, we are already plowing out >50% overheal, more SP does not help, whereas lowering cost of HL is a huge help.

For a FoL build, couple that with GoHS (5 sec HS), with proper weaving of HS, you can keep up +255 sp indefinately. We'll have to see what T10 raids bring but T9 and lower certainly don't allow for exclusive use of FoL, so we build to handle the HL spam needs, which pretty much ruins the value of T10 libram.

Personally, I am cool with early on libram covering an expansion, not like we don't have 16 other slots to upgrade!

I don't think I realized that so many people thought a FoL build is viable especially enough to justify the existence of the icecrown libram. It's a build very few high end paladins, premo being the main exception, take due to the extreme drop in HPS in comparison to a normal paladin.

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I don't think I realized that so many people thought a FoL build is viable especially enough to justify the existence of the icecrown libram. It's a build very few high end paladins, premo being the main exception, take due to the extreme drop in HPS in comparison to a normal paladin.

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I don't have a pally but IF you were going to make a FoL build, why would you use a ~220 spellpower libram over the pvp libram which gives like 436 spellpower on FoL?

I personally will swap between my different totems depending on what the fight calls for, i have a spell power one for chain heal, a spell power one for LHW, and a reduced mana one for chain heal, then depending on what i expect my mana requirements and healing style to be, i can choose between them for any given fight. For pallies it seems the extra spell power in a HL build is not needed and then you end up with renewal since its the only other one (and is worth like 250 mp5).

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I don't have a pally but IF you were going to make a FoL build, why would you use a ~220 spellpower libram over the pvp libram which gives like 436 spellpower on FoL?

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As a previous poster mentioned that libram is only available through arena, which some people refuse to do.

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As a previous poster mentioned that libram is only available through arena, which some people refuse to do.

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Well... you can buy the deadly (333 SP) for just honor now. Furius (~370 sp)requires 1200 rating... which if you join an existing team should only require 7 wins. Relentless is less trivial. BUT when ICC comes out Relentless will be trivial and the next arena seasons (expect 500 SP) will become the qq libram.

But yeah, saying the ICC libram is good for a FoL build when at that point you could easily get the Relentless which gives almsot double the SP to FoL... right, no.

just get 1800 for the 436 libram, it's kind of a lot more sp than the deadly.

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Well... you can buy the deadly (333 SP) for just honor now. Furius (~370 sp)requires 1200 rating... which if you join an existing team should only require 7 wins.

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And the furious one should be available for just honor after 3.3.

My first inclination is simply to say that they didn't think through the Libram of Renewal very well. This feels relatively right to me, because look at what Holy Paladins went live with for Wrath of the Lich King:

-60% mana return on Illumination
-20% healing penalty on Divine Plea
-%mana cost reduction on holy light from T7 set bonus
-static mana cost reduction on holy light from this libram.

Honestly, if we had that, how in the world would we ever run out of mana?



However, that doesn't adequately explain why the next two librams gave a static spell power bonus to Holy Light, where it's really not needed. Nor does it explain why the Libram of Renewal hasn't been nerfed (not that I want it to be nerfed mind) or why subsequent librams haven't made a more serious attempt to appeal to Holy Light paladins. The reason we didn't use the second or third librams was because Spell Power is not what a HL paladin needs the most.... making it universal spell power instead of being HL specific doesn't change that.

The problem is this: if you spec for Holy Light, mana is likely your biggest concern in the long run. The Libram of Renewal directly addresses that problem. The only way they could make another libram appeal to HL paladins without simply giving out a stronger Libram of Renewal is if they looked for something else we need...

I wouldn't mind seeing something like "When Light's Grace is active, you gain ### haste rating to your holy light spell" or just "### haste rating to holy light". A lot of paladins don't stack haste beyond the FoL soft cap, so this libram would directly benefit them. It might not always be better, but it at least might be viable (which is more than you can say about any of the others).

Don't really understand the hate on the SP librams, if your not having mana issues, whats the point of your libram of renewal?

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Don't really understand the hate on the SP librams, if your not having mana issues, whats the point of your libram of renewal?

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So you don't have to MS your heals.

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So you don't have to MS your heals.

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Eh, with 30k mana pool, looking at around 65 or so holy lights to compensate one plea period.
Thats also assuming its a fight that doesn't give you free plea breaks anyways.
Personally unless its a fight that actually gives me mana issues, 234 SP for the fight seems more beneficial then saving yourself one plea.

Unfortunately as others have said when this has come up before.

The easiest and most likely solution to the libram issues is a nerf to libram of renewal. Its best left alone.

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The easiest and most likely solution to the libram issues is a nerf to libram of renewal. Its best left alone.

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I don't particularly care if they have to nerf some thing for a better overall balance. I was genuinely happy they nerfed illumination if that was what it took to get mp5 buffed. I didn't like sharding all of the mp5 spell power plate and I'm not happy looking at each new libram that comes out as a waste of space.

Every libram since nax has been nothing but more spellpower. Nax, Ulduar, ToC, now ICC.

*cups hands around mouth and calls to his fellow Paladins*

"HEY! ANY OF YOU NEED MORE SPELLPOWER?"

*gets hit in the face by enough tomatos to blot out the sun*


That's why no one is picking up the other librams. The way we gem, enchant, and itemize ourselves should make it OBVIOUS why people are sticking with the Renewal Libram and skipping all the others. LoR is not overpowerd, it is just the only libram that offers us anything we want. I assure you that if they offered an ICC libram that was focused around mana regen we'd all flock to it.

Basically what everyone in the thread already said... we have absolutely NO need for more Spell Power. None. Especially if it requires us to do something as stupid as Holy Shock every cooldown. I like Holy Shock, especially in cases where using instants is all I got (movement in any fight, faction chumps etc), but having a Libram that requires I use it -very- often is both an insult and a danger. What if that moment I chose to Holy Shock is the moment that the tank takes the damage that the 5k Holy Shock was not enough to keep him alive (ie: any **%#ing hard mode boss)?

So yeah, new Libram is fail. I'll still use the SP on Holy Light proc Libram occasionally and LoR on Hard Modes when ICC comes out. Oh and off topic but I'll also continue to have Display Helm unchecked :P