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Q u o t e:
There's no way anybody can say that an ilevel 200 Libram bought with Heroism Badges outpacing all others is "working as intended" with a straight face.

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Many people are of the mindset that if it's in the game then it's intended. The fact that blizzard hasn't done any thing about this for 8 months now adds a little credibility to that argument. However, it's also possible that blizzard wasn't even aware that this was a problem.

This thread wasn't spamming the same topic as 9 other threads on the front page. I read these forums pretty frequently and I haven't seen this topic brought up in months.

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Q u o t e:
There's no way anybody can say that an ilevel 200 Libram bought with Heroism Badges outpacing all others is "working as intended" with a straight face.

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Different mechanisms,

200 is a mana reduction to holy light
226 is a throughput to holy light
245 is + sp based off holy light
258?? is +sp based off holy shock.

it happens that pallies prefer mana reduction.

I stil have and still use Libram of grace http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22402 in my bags from aq40 days, is it working as intended that situationally it can be the best libram?

Libram of renewal is the best if you want to save mana while using holy light.
Pvp libram is te best if you want throughput while using flash of light.
If and when they add a 10 minute perma helgan dance then the new libram will be the best. Of course 90% of raids would just stack resto druids but whatever.

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Q u o t e:


Different mechanisms,

200 is a mana reduction to holy light
226 is a throughput to holy light
245 is + sp based off holy light
258?? is +sp based off holy shock.

it happens that pallies prefer mana reduction.

I stil have and still use Libram of grace http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22402 in my bags from aq40 days, is it working as intended that situationally it can be the best libram?

Libram of renewal is the best if you want to save mana while using holy light.
Pvp libram is te best if you want throughput while using flash of light.
If and when they add a 10 minute perma helgan dance then the new libram will be the best. Of course 90% of raids would just stack resto druids but whatever.

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Your argument for 4 librams ranging to a 58 ilevel difference being worthless is that they're catered towards different goals?

I think you're missing the entire point of libram of renewal. The mana saved from the libram allows you to cast more holy lights or have less divine plea time. This additional healing outweighs the spell power benefit of the other librams.

There is no situation in the last 2 expansions that the aq 40 libram is best in slot. Even if they released a chromagus 2.0 that libram would still be worthless due to the inflation of mana pools/regen. While soft haste capped I can spam cleanse indefinitely with out running out of mana. If I cast a single spell besides cleanse then any other libram will be better.

-edit

Proof reading makes me sad... There, their, they're.

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Q u o t e:


I don't particularly care if they have to nerf some thing for a better overall balance. I was genuinely happy they nerfed illumination if that was what it took to get mp5 buffed. I didn't like sharding all of the mp5 spell power plate and I'm not happy looking at each new libram that comes out as a waste of space.

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This ideology really needs to be addressed. It's understandable, and perhaps even admirable that you're able to see the Illumination nerf as paving the road for the mp5 buff. Since mp5 exists on gear, and more specifically on gear designed for Paladins, it's probably a good thing if mp5 is a useful stat for Paladins.

When we get to the libram situation, however, it's a completely different ballgame. The problem with spellpower librams isn't one of amount-per-investment, as was the case with mp5. The problem is one of usefulness. In the case of mp5, more mana regeneration for a very mana-intensive spell was always useful, there were just more efficient ways to get it. More healing out of a spell that already overheals significantly in most cases isn't likely to be terribly useful.

Now, since the problem isn't with return-on-investment, some kind of "nerf (something related to throughput) and buff the effect of spellpower" program doesn't benefit anyone - at best, it gets us back to where we were before anything happened. Of course, that's not even what's being proposed. The proposal seen here (and in a number of other places) is that taking away something useful will magically cause something unrelated to be useful. That just doesn't make sense.

Let's be clear here: the problem we're trying to solve is that spellpower isn't useful enough. This situation has everything to do with how much Holy Light currently heals for and what the benefit of more spellpower is, and nothing to do with a particular badge libram that effects neither of these two things. Nerfing Libram of Renewal doesn't make any options more attractive, it only forces people to take unattractive options.

In short, as long as Holy Light causes an already-significant amount of overheal, and as long as spellpower translates only into more raw direct healing, the attractiveness of spellpower is going to be significantly diminished. Additionally, making other stats and/or items less attractive doesn't make spellpower an iota more attractive than it currently is, it simply forces less attractive options on people. This is not a step forward

Quite honestly, they do. It really revolves around our lack of other healing spells as to why an iLvL200 libram is considered BiS for most raiding paladins. FoL is just too weak to get the job done. HS is on CDs. All that is left is an incredibly expensive heal called HL. To make the class even function, we have to gear entirely for regen and mana cost reduction. Add to that the fact that SP on HL only results in more overhealing rather than better healing. It is not a bad libram design. It is bad class design that is the real problem. The longer the developers keep living in their little fantasy land about this, the worse it will get.

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Q u o t e:
Quite honestly, they do. It really revolves around our lack of other healing spells as to why an iLvL200 libram is considered BiS for most raiding paladins. FoL is just too weak to get the job done. HS is on CDs. All that is left is an incredibly expensive heal called HL. To make the class even function, we have to gear entirely for regen and mana cost reduction. Add to that the fact that SP on HL only results in more overhealing rather than better healing. It is not a bad libram design. It is bad class design that is the real problem. The longer the developers keep living in their little fantasy land about this, the worse it will get.

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I re-rolled from a priest to fill my guild's need for paladins during early BC. The progress they've made on this class since then is astounding. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a bit of a leap to jump from a libram being overpowered to the paladin class being broken.

Not really. The reason the iLvL200 libram is so potent is because the most effective paladin heal is HL by a long ways. Because we use our main 'nuke' heal, we don't need the SP. If other paladin heals were more potent in harder content, the iLvL200 libram would be less effective, and paladins might look at other options. It's related to the lack of heal versatility, not the libram, that is the real problem. If they give paladins that versatility, they will have to make corrections, and the class will be better off for it.

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Q u o t e:
Anytime gear progresses but gets worse, it's a problem. Why do you think people complain so much when new tiers come out and they are poorly itemized? Gear should progress. If not over one tier, then certainly there should be some improvement going from 7 to 10. But when it comes to healing Librams, there is no improvement.

imho, the new Icecrown Libram should be something along the lines of "your Holy Light spells give you 40mp5 for 15 seconds, stacks X times" or somesuch.

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It would have to stack a lot of times....
Librams/Idols/Totems that reduce mana cost of a spell usually are correctly budgeted if you only use that spell once per 5 seconds... if you are casting >1 of that spell now you get an item that is providing a much larger benefit then it's ilvl.

The best way to make other librams besides renewal attractive is to buff flash of light in a meaningful way that allows it to be useful in PvE again.

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Q u o t e:
The best way to make other librams besides renewal attractive is to buff flash of light in a meaningful way that allows it to be useful in PvE again.

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That's a bit of a simplistic answer. I would love to use FoL more in pve, but it's still the main spell used in pvp. Paladins certainly don't need any pvp buffs.

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Q u o t e:
The best way to make other librams besides renewal attractive is to buff flash of light in a meaningful way that allows it to be useful in PvE again.

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Would never happen. PvP would QQ so much it would fill the grand canyon.

Anyway you could add the Libram to display on the toon model? Like the way you can see Arthas' libram hanging on his side.

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Q u o t e:
Anyway you could add the Libram to display on the toon model? Like the way you can see Arthas' libram hanging on his side.

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^^^^

It'd actually be kind of cool if you added doodads like that for a lot of classes, like maybe a quiver for hunters... though I guess they don't use quivers anymore do they?

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Q u o t e:
It'd actually be kind of cool if you added doodads like that for a lot of classes, like maybe a quiver for hunters...

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You've been able to see a quiver slung across a hunter's back when they have a bow out for quite some time.

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Q u o t e:
The problem with this item slot is it has now become so spec specific that we can't offer you multiple choices per tier (because we can't make that many items and ship a patch on time). So instead we try and focus on getting you to change up your gameplay, just a little, when a new relic arrives on the scene. This doesn't happen every upgrade, and it really doesn't need to. Constantly jumping around would become as predictable as never jumping at all.

For Cataclysm, we're considering some different implementations of the piece. Perhaps we'll go back to putting some stats on them. It's too early to tell.

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We're not asking for multiple libram, we're asking for one that is better then a lvl200 one. I can appreciate the intent to change up our play style cause it can get boring, but with the current and proposed librams our first and lowest ilvl level80 libram is still the most effective. Unless ICC bosses stop hitting for +15k damage on tanks in a short period or holy paladins are given more raid healing capablities , us holy paladins will still spam HL. The lvl245 libram does not allow us to do our job effectively.

Reading comprehension for the win?

The paladins in this thread are complaining about never getting a new libram as powerful as the first libram available on badge gear vendor... as in never changing at all.

I'm fine with using the ilvl 200 libram, it's basically like a glyph you pick the one that best suits your playstyle. It kinds of eschews the whole higher ilvl = better for me model, but I'm ok with completely discarding that for one slot.

Everyone agrees renewal is incredibly powerful, so I don't get the clamor, is there some secret hope that instead of outright nerfing renewal they'll introduce an even more overpowered libram?