First off, please keep it civil. I have seen two other locked forums regarding gearscore, and I am still very confused. I am hoping to get some decent, civil, conversation.

That said, I have been working on Wintergrasp (I just got my second purple item yesterday, still need to socket ) dailies so I can start a new character with heirloom items. After I finish Wintergrasp, I see a lot of people spamming (for lack of a better word) invites for different 25 man dungeons (voa is the most common one I see).

I have been invited, and subsequently kicked out, of every single one because my rating is too low. A few groups kicked me out because I could not provide a link to an accomplishment, and therefore was not good enough (apparently).

Assuming that 15 of the 25 people are geared to the teeth, and 10 are like me (I have some decent stuff, but I could definitely improve), would the raid fail? Are the monsters so difficult that even a highly geared group of 25 people just barely skim by? Or are people somewhat elitist, and want to blow through these dungeons? I ask because it seems I am having a hard time "breaking in" to that upper group, and I am confused as to why.

Some feedback, please. And let's try to keep this civil. I hate when a thread is locked because everybody turns so negative.

Thanks!

Jim.

Its really simple to understand: Progression

You should run Normal Dungeons for ilvl 200 Blues
You should then run Heroic Dungeons for ilvl 200 Purples
You should run Normal ToC and Heroic ToC

After having upgraded every slot then you should begin looking at raids such as Naxx, EoE, VoA, Ulduar etc.. etc...

PROGRESSION is the key.

I do not do Pick Up Groups/Raids so I cannot feel your pain, but I do understand the reasoning.

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Q u o t e:
Its really simple to understand: Progression

You should run Normal Dungeons for ilvl 200 Blues
You should then run Heroic Dungeons for ilvl 200 Purples
You should run Normal ToC and Heroic ToC

After having upgraded every slot then you should begin looking at raids such as Naxx, EoE, VoA, Ulduar etc.. etc...

PROGRESSION is the key.

I do not do Pick Up Groups/Raids so I cannot feel your pain, but I do understand the reasoning.

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This is all true. There are many ways to improve your gear before stepping into a 25-man.

Let me also elaborate on the OP's question of "Would the group fail if some of us are undergeared?" and the answer is yes. The second boss of VoA periodically "overcharges" one of his minions, and the entire raid must dps it down as quickly as possible. If it isn't killed within a short time, it explodes and the entire raid dies.

So yes, the instance is specifically designed to have a "DPS check" - if the group's dps is too low, the group dies.

Your rating would be very low and so would your DPS. Your DPS is most likely around 700-800 and even in heroics people should be expecting at least 1k. You should run a few normal 80 instances and/or work on some reputations. Reps are easy to build up quickly and some excellent gear is available at reasonable prices. Spend a little bit of gold on the AH and some of those L73 quest rewards can get replaced w/ better greens/decent blues.

I see you have a couple of the Titan pieces so obviously PvP isn't somehting you are against. If you have a blacksmith friend, have them hook you up w/the L78 blue pvp set. Light years better than most of your gear, you will see a huge dps jump.

With your current gear I wouldn't even take you into Naxx. If I was putting together a pug for old BC content sure. This isn't to be mean, it's just about making sure that people are pulling their weight. If you are giving it all you have and still only putting out 600 or 800dps, why take you when we can get someone who has geared up in heroic 5 mans and does 2k dps?

Our guild had very reasonable restrictions on raiding back in the early part of the xpac. As DPS, if you are below 1k DPS, stick to normal L80 instances. You should be doing at least 1.3k to go to Naxx. These days, its so easy to run heroics w/people who are well geared and just farming badges that a bit lower dps won't be a big deal. Normal Trial of the Champion will be amazing for you too.

I understand your frustrations tho. I was invited to a 10 man Ony recently then kicked b/c my gearscore was sub-4200. I think it sits around 4150 now, I can't remember. I have several characters of similar gearing and they all float between 4k and 4250, with my warrior being down in the 3800s b/c I've played him less. Your gearscore likely isn't even 2k.. If it is it's just barely. Gearscore doesn't tell what your ability is with your class, but it an easy way for pug groups to know that you can potentially handle yourself properly.

I say all this as someone who dislikes gearscore, but recognize some of the benefits. I guess my disagreement comes more from the exact numbers some folks require :)

Gearscore is a wonderful mod that can tell you in seconds what it might take you a few more seconds to find out by alt-tabbing and checking one of dozens of websites that contain character data.

There are two things that encompass a character that you want in your raid and/or heroic dungeon:

(1) Skill. There is no mod to tell you this, all you can hope is that a person with a certain level of gear must have necessarily taken part in fights that would normally require a requisite amount of skill and raiding experience, and therefore the presumption is that they have at least _some_ skill.

(2) Gear. Here's where Gearscore comes in handy. A person without skill, but in good gear _might_ not be helpful to your raid. But a person in terrible gear will not be much of a contributor, regardless of their skill level. Low level gear severely cripples anyone's ability to tank/dps/heal.


Its true that most heroic dungeons are now so easy (when the tank/healer are well geared) that you can 3-man almost all of them. For that reason, its pretty trivial to drag an undergeared player through a heroic dungeon.

But when it comes to raiding - particularly raiding in higher-end content - gear is vital to a successful raid.

When it comes to pugging, you must realize that in most cases, the organizer knows nothing about you. Are you an alt of a well experienced raider? Do you play your class well, or do you use a non-optimal rotation for dps? Do you like to stand in the fire? There's no add-on that can tell a raid organizer these things. But there are many ways for a raid organizer to check on a given pug's gear (and achievements). For that reason, it is used as a measuring stick.

Does the player have a requisite gearscore? If so, they _should_ preform well in this raid. If not, then the odds of performing well are slim, if not impossible. (But its good practice to follow up with an actual inspection to verify proper spec/glyphs/enchants/gems, and that no inappropriate gear was used to inflate the gearscore. Achievements are good indicators too.)

As the Goblin's say: "Time is money, friend." Raid organizers don't typically want to spend the time to get to know you during the raid recruitment process. They want to know that you're well geared and capable of performing well. Gearscore helps immensely in streamlining this task. The presumptions it engenders may not always be accurate, but more often than not its a very helpful mod to a raid organizer.

That said, if you find yourself getting kicked (or denied) from Raids due to a low gearscore, there are many ways to improve your gear outside of raiding. As for Heroics, the only time gearscore becomes an issue is when an elitist jerk is organizing the group. I suggest you steer clear of those types anyhow.

Likewise, there's nothing worse than an undergeared player who feels entitled to join your raid and expects others to carry him on their backs while wrapping new gear around him. That's just as detestible an attitude as that displayed by the elitists who kick people from heroics dungeon groups on the basis of gearscore.

*SIGH* Even in an attempt at civility, elitism reigns...

OP: the intended progression in Wrath of the Lich King is this:
1) Hit 80. Start immediately doing Heroic versions of the 5-man dungeons you leveled up through. Collect blues and an occasional Epic. Make sure your gear is almost all such items.

2) Start doing 10-man Naxxramas. It's tuned with the expectation that the majority of your gear is going to be from Heroics. If you're still in one or two greens at this point, you're generally fine, but you should work to replace them as soon as possible.

2a) Trial of the Champion is a 5-man instance at the Argent Tournament Grounds that drops Naxxramas 10-level Epics, iLevel 200. Farming runs on this instance will gear you up fast. If you find a group requiring you to be in Naxxramas Epics by the time you run this instance, don't group with them, as you won't find upgrades in there. It, like Naxxramas, makes an assumption that most of your gear comes from Heroics.

3) After Naxx10/ToC5, you have the option of progressing to Ulduar10 or Heroic ToC5. Both drop iLevel 219 Epics. You'll get Epics faster in ToC, but if you want a more large-scale raiding experience, Ulduar is your man until icecrown Citadel is released in Patch 3.3. Again, if you attempt to PUG into H-ToC5, and find the group requiring you to be in Ulduar10 or better Epics already, don't join. You're not going to find an upgrade in there.

3a) You have the option of progressing from 10-mans to 25-mans in a lateral fashion. If you're geared in Naxx10 gear, you can either go to Ulduar10 or try out Naxx25. Likewise, if you're in Ulduar10 gear, you can either try out Ulduar25 or go to ToC10. From Ulduar25, you can go to Trial of the Grand Crusader 10, and from there to TotGC25, which drops Tier 9 gear, the highest in the game right now til ICC comes out.

The people requiring higher gearscores or achievements are either being elitists, sheep who take what they see on third-party websites as "gospel", ignoring the planned progression from the actual developers of the game, or they're looking for a very quick run with guaranteed victory. Try not to pay too much attention to them.

EDIT: First! W00t!

there is also the unfortunate truth that gear score is the only way you can guess a person's dps if you don't know them or haven't run with them much.

the simple fact is that while it is equally possible for a full i245 person to do crap dps and a i200 person to do crap dps, it is more likely that the i245 will do better.

Though i have seem some remarkable exceptions to that rule enough that unless you're in a bunch of greens or it's VOA, i don't use gear score at all as a judge.

I don't understand why everyone complains. It's no different from pre-bc and BC when people would alt-tab to armory you. This is just quicker.

Get some better gear and try again. Don't try hopping from dungeon blues to ilvl245.

Progression on most servers basically boils down to this:

You need Naxx gear to run heroics.

You need Ulduar gear to run Naxx.

You need ToGC to run Ulduar.

Soon you will need Icecrown Citadel gear to run ToGC.

A fresh 80 needs to Lrn2play to magically acquire the gear needed to start running what has become backwards progression.

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Q u o t e:
Learn to read posts before making stupid comments.

=p

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I read the posts. Read mine before making stupid comments.

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Q u o t e:
Learn to read posts before making stupid comments.

=p

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The post you quoted was correct and succinct. OP is severely undergeared and is trying to do VoA25, which drops ilevel 245 epics. You should try to avoid making erroneous corrections.

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Q u o t e:
*SIGH* Even in an attempt at civility, elitism reigns...

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Actually, this thread seems pretty reasonable and civil. You might agree or disagree, think somebody is off-base or whatever, but people are laying out their ideas on average very constructively it seems.

EDIT: I stand corrected. Childish name-calling started a few posts ago.