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Q u o t e:


It's called inspect...

I use it...you should to.

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I wasn't aware that inspecting someone would allow you to see their statistical success at completing instances. I almost always do more DPS than pure DPS classes with higher gear scores than myself, and I never stand in fires and die. My special thanks to Gearscore for accurately judging my abilities as a player.

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Q u o t e:

Because every day I play the game I see fairly reasonable requests from players looking for groups. I join groups here and there with little strife or disagreements amongst the players with whom I'm grouped, or interested in grouping. I feel I have greater access to a wider array of content than ever before. I've been able to gear up multiple 80's fairly quickly and have had a lot of fun doing it.

Then I come to the forums on Monday. After reading a few heated threads, it's as though there's this monster within World of Warcraft pushing against the majority of the player base -- a player base consisting of gamers who are all amazing at their class and perfectly ready to conquer any content thrown at them, but just can't because the big boys won't give them a chance.

It's like we're playing different games here. The one I play is fun.

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You don't see this as a problem because it is not a problem on your server. It is also not a problem on my server yet I am smart enough to see the issue at hand.

yes all has to be just right or,oh my we might fail.All this crap is for one reason and one reason only,people are to damn lazy to actually have to work for a kill so everyone has to be uber or you can't go.
it's called exclusion,if you aren't a popular kid,sorry chuck,if you are a causal player looking to play the game,sorry chuck.
a few under geared or new to the raid people will not bring down a raid,you might have to actually play your class a little better,pay attention,put your sandwich down every now and then,but hell no we can't have that,we have to do it fast and easy or sorry chuck

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Q u o t e:
You know what would be a much better tool? Skillscore.

This add-on would judge a player based on itemization, gems, enchants, and ability to finish an instance successfully and in a timely manner.

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Isn't the gearscore guy workin on incorporating dungeon and raid achievements into his mod?

Or was that wow-heroes? Hmm.

In any case, it would just tend to make the situation even more hopeless for fresh 80s and new alts.

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Q u o t e:

Then I come to the forums on Monday. After reading a few heated threads, it's as though there's this monster within World of Warcraft pushing against the majority of the player base -- a player base consisting of gamers who are all amazing at their class and perfectly ready to conquer any content thrown at them, but just can't because the big boys won't give them a chance.

It's like we're playing different games here. The one I play is fun.

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Same here. Mine is fun (when my wife permits me to play that is!) as well. I have fun putting together pug groups for 5-man heroics and running through them - it's a good time!

That being said, the experience for me is night and day between playing on my rogue and playing on my DK. On my DK I can tank an instance, pull together a PuG and have no concerns about "dps/gearscores/blah blah" because I know that we can simply control the pace of our progress and make it through if we have a couple of undergeared players.

On my rogue, however, it's nigh-impossible to pull a pug together. I am nearly always forced to hunt and search for 5-man groups that are running something and happen to need a dps. At that, I have had to convince them that 2.5k-3k DPS will be fine. Im lucky that my rogue has been run part-way through a 10-man Ulduar farm and a 25-man Naxx farm, or he would still be in quest blues.

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Q u o t e:

Anything that's going to help determine a group's preparedness, experience, coordination, and synergy is going to promote success. If you think these systems of measurement are destroying the game, I suggest you put together a raid for 25-player Ulduar or Trial of the Crusader. I suggest you put forth no criteria for players that must be met in order to be invited to the raid. I suggest you tell them there will be no vent or raid warnings for coordinating during boss fights. Get back to me with your results. :)

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Some of my most fun raids lately is getting in a Nax group full of rag-tags/rerolls/puggers that have never set foot in Nax or at least have never finished it. They tend to STAY for the full raid and LISTEN /gasp...especially when you tell them if they don't they get kicked. The eager are always willing.

It's the higher level (i.e. ToC+ Uld) raids where you find the jerks what start a raid so they can surround themselves with overgeared players.

The armory hurt things worst for new players in particular. Nowadays people won't even take you unless you outgear a place by a full tier level (this includes heroics which is comical). Saw some moron in trade the other day LF DPS for Headless Horseman, a soloable boss. The guy was demanding 2200 gearscore from people. That is just ridiculous and completley absurd. It isn't the armory itself but the way people use it and derive so-called "Gear Scores".

Meters however are vital (imo). The way the game has been changed there is absolutely no excuse for someone to be in a raid encounter and not be able to pull an absolute minimum of 2k on a single target. Aside from alts being run through 2k is a fair albeit low line to draw in the sand. We see it every single day though, heroic runs with dps (always dps) doing a whopping 800-1200. Especially factoring in how ezmode the game has become that is completely lazy and unnacceptable, "It's my 15 a month I'll play how I want" - "It's our 60 a month and we think you suck" /groupkick.

As for addons and achievements... Again achievement linking is ridiculous and them being added to the game is in my opinion no different from the armory. It's how people use them that makes them bad. Addons help in most cases, and voice chat just makes everyone's life easier (usually).

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Q u o t e:


sarah why you always this fiesty

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You're right. I'm done argueing with all these butthurt scrubs that didn't get a raid invite due to their 4200 GS. Run my priest sm imo

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Q u o t e:



In any case, it would just tend to make the situation even more hopeless for fresh 80s and new alts.

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Fresh 80's and alts have no business jumping right into Ulduar and beyond. It's absurd. My goodness... people should at least do some Heorics first and get some badge gear, maybe craft some gear.

What is so difficult about understanding that gear score is a tool to be used by a raid leader to gain more information about those people he may choose to invite to a raid? Let me give you an example

Lets assume one day I lost my mind and decided that it would be fun to run with a pug 25 man ToC, Im looking for a boomkin to fill out my roster. I get two whispers, both players claim to have experience of the fight...both players claim to be good...(have yet to meet anyone asking to join a group saying they are terrible) but one has a gear score of 5000, the other has a gear score of 2000. Sure the boomkin with the 5k gear score could be terrible...but so could the boomkin with the 2k score...the fact is I cannot judge their performance until I see it with my own eyes. However the fact that he has that much gear means he has at least raided a fair bit on his boomkin at that is some information I didnt have before.

As for DPS meters...this one I cannot even fathom how you are arguing against...fights have dps requirements, period. DPS meters let you find the weak links in your raid and improve upon or replace them as needed. If I was in a raid with a same spec, similarly geared warlock...but he was doing 3k more than me...I would say..."Gee what the hell am I doing wrong". The problem is that most people would rather live with illusions of eliteness rather than try and modify their own play. DPS meters are a great tool for the raiding community but if you would rather sit there without any conception of how you are doing by all means run those kind of raids.



As for a sarcastic aside...I really really would love to see a raid of iLevel 200 geared people get together and run 25man ToC. See how well that turns out if gear level is so irrelevant to performance.

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Q u o t e:

I haven't checked. I will say that on my alt 80 I'm currently playing, I cleared 25-player Naxxramas once and ran a bunch of Heroics before clearing 10-player Trial of the Crusader next. After that, I killed Ignus and Iron Council on this alt in 10-player Ulduar, as I jumped into a raid where all other bosses (aside from Ignus) prior to Iron Council were down. I've cleared to Anub'Arak in 25-player Trial of the Crusader so far (my first week in the 25-player instance).

For the most part, this wasn't from guildies carrying me through to get gear. I hit 80, did everything I could to gear up through crafted items and reputation rewards before jumping into PUG Heroics, then almost immediately jumped into my Trial of the Crusader guild run. Never before in World of Warcraft's history would this type of progression on a fresh 80 have been possible.

Someone said I came off as an elitist in this thread or another today. The notion tickled me. I never had the time or patience to get into a hardcore progression guild in the past. Now, since I'm not interested in doing hard modes, I don't really need to apply to a guild like that anymore. I can experience more content than ever before on my own time. If I'm an elitist because I look up popular or proven talent builds, gear choices, and glyphs, then so be it. I want to do everything in my power to make sure skill is not the determining factor in my game play. I can accept that gear might be for certain instances or encounters, but then I know I have multiple avenues to rectify that with a relatively small amount of time invested.

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Thank you for being logical in your responses. I don't understand where all the complaining comes from.

All the gear I currently have I got from running heroics for emblems, WG, and VoA 10/25 and it's only been about 4 weeks since I started. I started in only PvP hateful and deadly gear with crafted weapons.

I play about 2 hours a day 3 days a week plus a few hours over a weekend.. I'm going to try and get into a ToC 10 man and Ulduar 25 now, and if I can't, I won't blame the system, I will simply try to gear up more.

everyone can take different things from the current game's mechanics as they see fit.

but i think the OP created this thread to talk about the community's metamorphosis. not about who can or cannot do what, but how the community interacts with each other now, as opposed to in the past. the classic point of a mmo was the community. wow was revolutionary, but has changed the mmorpg playerbase. wow created the first casual mmo, but at the same time, created the worst mmo community and playerbase than any mmo preceding it.

addons, although created by players, dont help alleviating the issue. if it can even be considered an issue.

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Q u o t e:

Anything that's going to help determine a group's preparedness, experience, coordination, and synergy is going to promote success. If you think these systems of measurement are destroying the game, I suggest you put together a raid for 25-player Ulduar or Trial of the Crusader. I suggest you put forth no criteria for players that must be met in order to be invited to the raid. I suggest you tell them there will be no vent or raid warnings for coordinating during boss fights. Get back to me with your results. :)

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Well that all well and good to sprout this stuff.
how about you post the figures for all classes and there output in dps thru all levels of 80 gear progression from i180 to i270.
This rubbish only makes new players to the game confused as to what they should be outputting.

would be nice to have averages for dps in heroics 1 month after wotlk. just to see what it was.

Because what people spout about doing certain dps and what they did are 2 different things.

Bit hard to shoot for a goal when you don’t know how far the goal is away from you. or what your classes goal is and what others are accurately averaging at or before the goal.

I read this...

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Q u o t e:

I haven't checked. I will say that on my alt 80 I'm currently playing, I cleared 25-player Naxxramas once and ran a bunch of Heroics before clearing 10-player Trial of the Crusader next. After that, I killed Ignus and Iron Council on this alt in 10-player Ulduar, as I jumped into a raid where all other bosses (aside from Ignus) prior to Iron Council were down. I've cleared to Anub'Arak in 25-player Trial of the Crusader so far (my first week in the 25-player instance).

For the most part, this wasn't from guildies carrying me through to get gear. I hit 80, did everything I could to gear up through crafted items and reputation rewards before jumping into PUG Heroics, then almost immediately jumped into my Trial of the Crusader guild run. Never before in World of Warcraft's history would this type of progression on a fresh 80 have been possible.

Someone said I came off as an elitist in this thread or another today. The notion tickled me. I never had the time or patience to get into a hardcore progression guild in the past. Now, since I'm not interested in doing hard modes, I don't really need to apply to a guild like that anymore. I can experience more content than ever before on my own time. If I'm an elitist because I look up popular or proven talent builds, gear choices, and glyphs, then so be it. I want to do everything in my power to make sure skill is not the determining factor in my game play. I can accept that gear might be for certain instances or encounters, but then I know I have multiple avenues to rectify that with a relatively small amount of time invested.

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But all i see is this...

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Q u o t e:
I want to do everything in my power to make sure skill is not the determining factor in my game play. .

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ARE YOU SERIOUS?

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Q u o t e:

I read this...
But all i see is this...
ARE YOU SERIOUS?

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Least hes honest :p

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Q u o t e:


I wasn't aware that inspecting someone would allow you to see their statistical success at completing instances. I almost always do more DPS than pure DPS classes with higher gear scores than myself, and I never stand in fires and die. My special thanks to Gearscore for accurately judging my abilities as a player.

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Inspecting someone lets you see the gear, enchants, and gemming. It also shows you where the person has been based on what he/she is carrying around. In effect, "inspect" is teh be-all, end-all of judging someone. One stop shop, if you will. Everything you need, and right click and left click away.

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Q u o t e:
butthurt scrubs

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You aren't exactly helping your cause speaking to people like that. Nor is it going to get you much respect with the majority of the community. Don't make me wash out your mouth with soap kid!