---

Q u o t e:
So what's preferable:

The current system, where people make ridiculous standards to pug raids.

or

The old system where, without a raid guild, you didn't get to raid?

---

That.

With effort...you can meet the standard to get into your run of the mill Naxx10/25 PuG. That's better than needing to commit A LOT of time to hardcore raiding guilds. I've been in those before...unless you're a 40+ hour/week player, don't bother.

---

Q u o t e:
Funny people asking blizz to "fix" a problem they themselves created.

---

With all due respect to Blizzard, this issue was bound to pop up at some point after attunements were removed from the game. Again, not a big fan of gear score, it's terrible.

---

Q u o t e:
It's like we're playing different games here. The one I play is fun.

---

In before "DEVS DON'T PLAY WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

---

Q u o t e:

I agree completely. I see people saying "must be geared/have achievements" when looking for raid members. This isn't fundamentally different from the way the game has always been. Suddenly it's just become a huge topic of discussion on the forums.

I strongly disagree that this shows the sense of community on a given realm is diminished, or that player have lost their heart. I would also disagree with those arguing that they don't have the opportunity to get geared because people don't run the content they need to run to obtain the gear they need. I see raids going for all instances across several realms. I see more people running Heroics now than ever.

If anything, we're probably seeing more discussion about this because more raids are being done in pick-up groups, or partial pick-up groups. In the original game and the first expansion, raiding was primarily a guild thing. It required a set group of players with synergy and commitment to succeeding. Naturally, now that content is more accessible to more players, you're going to see more open judgment of players as raid groups are being filled. This is the way it's always been, except it used to take place primarily within the guild rather than within the realm.

---

Dang you dissapoint me Z. I've always liked your posts, but you come off as one of them elitist snobs in this thread. One of those people who believes if someone misses out on doing new content in it's first week, then they shouldn't ever do it (since they won't have an achievement to link on the 2nd week and therefore don't qualify to go).

Yes heroics are run more than ever because of the badges. The heroic gear itself is garbage and mostly useless (heroic TOC is an exception). But what about Naxx? Finding Naxx groups has become next to impossible, and I've seen this on 3 different servers.

You can make up fairy tales of Naxx being run a lot still...we all know it isn't. And when it does get run, people leave quickly (for whatever their reasons are) now because missing out on a Naxx save no longer matters. I don't think I've been in a Naxx pug that has finished since the 3.2 patch launched (I have other characters that have done Naxx more...look it up if you care to).

---

Q u o t e:
It's the very concept of Gearscore that bothers me personally.While it's not fundamentally different from the way the game has been in the past, players at least knew what they could or could not do via attunements. Players simply were not allowed in a particular area of the game until x requirements were met.

With how loosey-goosey the game is now, it's now more than ever, easier to do more difficult content regardless of gear. Now that players are nothing more than a "gearscore", it has dehumanized the game and reinforced a terrible superficial attitude amongst the player base. Just my 2 cents, but what do I know.

---

This may be the best explanation I've seen.

It's a classic case of "be careful about what you ask for, you just may get it." Everyone, including the "elites" complained about attunements: the elites didn't like dragging new guildies through over and over and didn't like having to do them on their 2nd and 3rd alts. The "non-raiders" thought they were exclusionary and designed to keep them from seeing all the end-game content. It would seem that they served the purpose of making sure people were adequately geared for the content. In the absence of attunements, players have found their own substitute. Like it or not, I think this is what it's all about.

I personally liked attunements. It gave things a sense of order and purpose rather than just another quest to do. It also seemed like a rite of progression on a personal level.

---

Q u o t e:

Because every day I play the game I see fairly reasonable requests from players looking for groups. I join groups here and there with little strife or disagreements amongst the players with whom I'm grouped, or interested in grouping. I feel I have greater access to a wider array of content than ever before. I've been able to gear up multiple 80's fairly quickly and have had a lot of fun doing it.

Then I come to the forums on Monday. After reading a few heated threads, it's as though there's this monster within World of Warcraft pushing against the majority of the player base -- a player base consisting of gamers who are all amazing at their class and perfectly ready to conquer any content thrown at them, but just can't because the big boys won't give them a chance.

It's like we're playing different games here. The one I play is fun.

---

You've obviously never played on Mal'ganis before. You need Uld25 HM achievements for Naxxramas.

---

Q u o t e:
I see a lot more noise about this on the forums than in game. I'm more concerned about these particular addons when they generate enough background noise to effectively DC raid members.

There have been issues with people demanding ridiculous requirements for quite some time. I've seen a few Vault PuGs fall apart because the raid leader kept passing over people that didn't fit his criteria.

Which he himself did not fit.

---

Lol, cause trade chat is where you can get a meaningful discussion about the game? Just teasing... no need to get up in arms.

---

Q u o t e:

Anything that's going to help determine a group's preparedness, experience, coordination, and synergy is going to promote success. If you think these systems of measurement are destroying the game, I suggest you put together a raid for 25-player Ulduar or Trial of the Crusader. I suggest you put forth no criteria for players that must be met in order to be invited to the raid. I suggest you tell them there will be no vent or raid warnings for coordinating during boss fights. Get back to me with your results. :)

---

I've found WoW to be much more enjoyable by simply not doing any group PvE.

Battlegrounds, WG, and open world questing/dailies are the only thing I bother with in this game anymore and I can't tell you how much better the game is for it. Too bad WoW's character progression for the solo player is so limited at level cap. Definitely left wanting in that department.

I get the feeling that their are a whole lot more people like me out there than the MMO "must group to play" *@#!s might think.

---

Q u o t e:

Anything that's going to help determine a group's preparedness, experience, coordination, and synergy is going to promote success. If you think these systems of measurement are destroying the game, I suggest you put together a raid for 25-player Ulduar or Trial of the Crusader. I suggest you put forth no criteria for players that must be met in order to be invited to the raid. I suggest you tell them there will be no vent or raid warnings for coordinating during boss fights. Get back to me with your results. :)

---

I understand your point. I'm just saying, mainly for the non-hardcore players, that people are more dependent on these things that aren't mentioned by Blizz. Maybe you should have a quick sheet attached to all new boxes of the game to prepare for whats to come once they reach 80.

There are people who fear the fact of installing an add-on may cause their account to be hacked or something. Its just best that you guys approve certain community web sites that are safe when downloading add-ons. Therefor making the new players feel comfortable playing this game.

Like Minimum and Recommended required specs you post on the box, I suggest adding for maximum play experience add-ons to the game, "approved by us, Blizz" is suggested. Or something of the like.

And I never said "its destroying the game," in my heading there is a question mark. I'm asking the question and seeing what the community has to say. Also I never said that its a bad thing not using them either. Just that people are too dependent on it these days, some if not all. Is the development now based around the use of the add-ons you quoted me on?

Thank you for your input :)

---

Q u o t e:


It's like we're playing different games here. The one I play is fun.

---

^^^

This.

I'll grant it may be server-dependent, but the horror stories I see people complaining about constantly on General, I see in the game very rarely, or never.

Rather than place blame outside of one's self, why not look inside the player base that has obviously demonstrated that they are more apt to see the glass "as half empty" rather than half full?

WOW is better and demonstrably improved from the days of Vanilla wow. There is also many more activities players can partake in, from entirely casual to totally hardcore.

The playerbase is "appears" to be less caring, have less manners, and more elitist because that is how YOU perceive it. With more guilds able to jump into the end-game/raiding scene, its very common that players who once never touched ventrilo or mods are doing so on a very regular basis, thus it is as common as people who go to gyms taking "supplements" or wearing certain workout gear.

(I.E. Lower barriers to entry.) It is a comfort factor, for many. With so many things to do in WOW, doing a heroic daily only to wipe or get saved to a bad group is more a hazard. This isn't that people don't care, but if I do a heroic daily and PUG it, I do expect to do it fast and have people who know what it is up. It does not mean I do not have fun, it only means it isn't the highest priority on my list.

Back at 80, when I first dinged, doing heroics were new, unique, and fun. Now, they are just a treadmill that I run on for achievements or badges. This is a fact of life. When "the unusual becomes usual..."

But you all are expecting the world to change, rather than bringing the change to the world yourself. It's ok, that is the plight of our generation, and more than likely the whole word. You expect to get on your forums or your facebook and write some nice tirade that you feel is worldly and intelligent and beautiful and affect change, only to find out you get tl;dr.

You want change? Be the change. Don't expect other's to change. You find something wrong? It's probably just you who's wrong. Everyone else is fine and doing their thing. Heroic and HardModes will be for only the most ardent defenders and because there's a date on them when they occur, people will know whether you did them geared, overgeared, or undergeared. NORMAL raids are purely for people to see the content and progress with the story, nothing more.

WOW is at where it is supposed to be. Plenty of dailies. BGS that work. PVP that is off, but functionable. Plenty of raids, most of them puggable now on normal. Many major end bosses (Kel, LK, Yogg). Plenty of gear for you to work out the best combination for yourself. Many ways to customize your toon. They are also churning out an XPAC alot sooner than they had before which will revamp and revitalize the whole game once more, renewing interest across the board.

People are free to ask for what ever group composition they like. Group leaders often ask for various requirements. I see LF2 more dps ranged only all the time. There are only a handful of fights that make ranged necessary. Most can be done with only melee. They ask for more ranged because it may make a certain fight easier, not because it cant be done with melee. I can live with this despite the fact that their requirement eliminates me completely despite how skilled or geared i am.

I guess my point is why do you care what other people require for their groups? Dont join elitist groups, make your own groups, join a guild: All seem like reasonable alternatives to running to the forums for a cry fest.

---

Q u o t e:


We used to do it all the time a long time ago, back before these infernal modern contraptions and their evil technological sorcery. Sure, we wiped a lot as we learned the encounters, but we did it. Eventually, we could defeat the event on autopilot, without any guidance from our raid leader at all. He just said "pull it," and it died.

So...you're saying that the WoW community can't effectively defeat a raid encounter without all kinds of help not originally designed into the game?

Man, I didn't realize that modern WoW guilds rode into Icecrown on the short bus. ;)

I stand by my statement. You can raid without addons or mods and do it well, and it is those very addons that are jading the WoW community. They complain that raids and content are too easy, yet they do anything in their power to make it as easy as possible.

I say ban all addons.

And GET OFF MY LAWN!

---

if they ever ban quest helper I will quit immediatly , this addon has made my gaming enjoyable again , I don't mind doing quests , what I mind is that it feels like work and alt'tabbing 20 times to thottbot to look at the place were the stupid mob that i'm supposed to kill is hidding when all I get is "go west and look for a huge body of water " as a clue.

Considering you have to do 1000 quest to level once all these "content" gets old quick"

This is an issue caused by two very disperrate desires that don't mesh...

On one hand, you have the desire to "farm" raid content with as little time and effort put in as possible. These people are looking for the best of the best in terms of gear and players - and gearscore, maybe unfortunately, is one of the best and most efficient ways to determine that fact. When you're going for speed and efficiency, take the gear, not the players, because we can assume that he who has the gear has the skill. That is often wrong...but not as often as its right.

On the other hands, you have players that are trying to break into the upper level content. Many of these players are casuals that aren't in raiding guilds because they can't put in the time [I'm one of these people - but I wasn't always]. The people often have varying degrees of quality-gear and will be anywhere from elite at their class to super-noobs. What they all have in common is a desire to see the upper level content and get "phat lewtz." Unfortunately, these players, for many reasons, just don't fit into the plans of the group I described above.

The thing is...they can...but it takes effort. Run regular heroics and get entry-level epics. Run ToC and h ToC. Run VoA and OS. Run all the entry level heroic content you can and get the best gear you can. Get good at your class. Once you put in that effort, you WILL get into PuG raids. Nothing comes for free...work and you'll get what you want.

And...in case you're wondering...there is nothing wrong with a Naxx25 PuG telling you to piss off if you walk in with crap gear. Or did you expect people to carry you through...

---

Q u o t e:


We used to do it all the time a long time ago, back before these infernal modern contraptions and their evil technological sorcery. Sure, we wiped a lot as we learned the encounters, but we did it. Eventually, we could defeat the event on autopilot, without any guidance from our raid leader at all. He just said "pull it," and it died.

---

I always find those post amazing....

In Vanilla my guild used Vent, Recount and a an aggro management tool (don't remember the name). Most succesful guild did too.

Sure if you are in a progression guild going for world firsts, you didn't use dbm, as it is the case nowadays. But trust me, those guild discriminate alot more than just by using the gearscore addon if you want to get in their runs.

Also every boss eventually turns out to be in auto-pilot when it's on farm. I don't turn on any addons when I'm in ulduar 10 and we did our last run with a druid who had 5 pieces of BoA gear.

Recounts is reallly useful to see who's doing what in a fight, that's the way my guild use it and it's a good way. It can be a really good way to see how you can improve your rotation, which classes perfom in different cases etc...

I know some people use it to say : hey look at me I did 12k on twins lololol but just laugh at that.

For gearscore addons... I already searched for people in armory or inspected in game before pugging raid. It only makes it easier.

I admit I am not yet ready for endgame content this is my highest toon and I pretty much solo'd my way here. I have been reading alot of rants about gearscore DPS etc (also alot of hunter bashing). I want to put a plea in for those who like me got where we are alone.

IF the world is going to demand a gearscore or DPS meter or whatever PLEASE someone write a sticky explaining what the heck they are and how one finds out WHAT our scores are. Also PLEASE someone help those of us new to outland and later content figure out WHAT exactly we should be shooting for. Y'all fo on and on about some minimum number with some letter acronym and I will be danged if I can find anywhere that tells me what the heck you are talking about. That's the real elitism I see in game. There are those that know the basic info and those that don't. Those that don't unless they happen to be lucky and run into the right person have virtually no way to find out.

How else can you know people are contributing?

It's annoying to waste time dieing because of people who don't know how to play. It is stupid to say "well, just enjoy" the game - I can not enjoy any game where I can not make progress because of factors out of my control, and that doesn't go just for WoW or multiplayer games, if I'm playing a single player game like oblivion and keep dieing for no reason or fault of my own and it's impossible for me to progress then it stops being fun, people who suck make this game not fun.

The problem is people who suck desperately want to play with people that are good, if you hate meters, gear scores and elitism so much then make your own noob guild and enjoy never seeing anything beyond naxx, stop trying to infilitrate groups of people who are good and ruining their experience.