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Q u o t e:
If you think addons are killing wow, then try to find healers that don't want to use grid or healbot (or any healing assistance addons).

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I currently raid with zero healing assistance addons.

I use mouseover macros but that is something that I coded into the in game system.

I saw it mentioned already but your tank needs to be def capped, especially on raids. Other then that your point is valid. I just pug heroics and dont really care about dps in general. I do get annoyed w/ those that pull under 1k dps, as my poorly geared lvl 71 spriest can put out 950 but w/e.

Oh right, I dont use add-ons either. My guild insists that I use DBM so I have that installed but I dont actually need it (I've done raids before w/out it when I was w/ guilds that didn't require it).

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Q u o t e:


If this is Blizzard's response to this concern, then I suggest you take up the torch and go with it instead of prancing about the real issue here. Things would go a lot more smoothly if Blizzard listed required Gear Score to complete their instances so that groups will have a substantial number to require you to have and not dance around their own imaginary requirements. It would also be nice if boss kills were account-wide.

I didn't know that you needed Ulduar25 gear to complete Naxx10, but apparently that's what Mal'ganis requires of ya.

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I think what he was saying is that if you are frustrated by trying to get into someone's raid because of these requirements, then go out and start your own raid to the specifications that you want. There are reasons that raid leaders ask for some of these things, especially add ons and vent. DBM and vent, in my opinion, make running a raid much easier because there is always that one person (who if they don't have some help) are going to doom your raid. You might miss that little debuff icon in the corner, but if you miss the "X has the Light Bomb" and people saying your name on vent to move, then you probably aren't raid material. Most raids I know and I have participated or lead do not require you to talk on vent, just to listen. There are numerous techniques to fight a boss and nothing is more frustrating then to have the raid decide on one route, and see someone run off and do something else cause that's "how my old raid does it." I have no idea why the OP listed either of these as contributing to the "killing of WoW."

Gearscore is a elementary measuring stick designed to give an idea of what your character has experienced and should be capable of. It is abused mainly by PuG groups because it may be used as the ultimate determination who can come along. If you hate it, try finding a raiding guild who actually plays with the same people in each raid. Or, go start your own and use your own policies and baseline to determine who you want to fight alongside you.

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Q u o t e:

Anything that's going to help determine a group's preparedness, experience, coordination, and synergy is going to promote success. If you think these systems of measurement are destroying the game, I suggest you put together a raid for 25-player Ulduar or Trial of the Crusader. I suggest you put forth no criteria for players that must be met in order to be invited to the raid. I suggest you tell them there will be no vent or raid warnings for coordinating during boss fights. Get back to me with your results. :)

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That's all well and good, but it bleeds over into every other aspect of the game. I've seen people checking gear scores for heroic runs. For easier 10 mans.

"WTB tank with 38k health for heroic farming"... honestly?

This is where people get frustrated. Think of the new 80, not in a major guild, trying to start heroics. Gear check him for the lose.

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Q u o t e:


What's your reasoning behind these criteria being demanded for 5 man heroics?

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Simple: I want to get it done. I don't want to spend 3 minutes killing a boss I killed 100 times in 30 seconds. If I am tanking, I sure as hell better be at the bottom of the dps chart. If I am healing I better be near full mana during trash. If I am DPSing I better not be 30-40% higher then the other dps. I do not want to carry people through things. I play this game to have fun, not to carry people. It's not unreasonable to want the people I group with to be able to pull there own weight.

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Q u o t e:


MC? really? that's your reference?

So clicking decursive 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week didn't make you want to gouge your eyes out using a rusted and blunt spork? Is that really your idea of "less tedious"?

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Pallies were the epitome of tedium in MC. That was my point. If you don't like healing in it's current form then you should probably not do it. Mods or not, it's simply refilling green bars (in my UI, anyway) instead of depleting red bars.

Choose whichever color bar you enjoy looking at the most and go to it.

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Q u o t e:

There's no good reason for that. Sure, a good chunk of players wants to blow through Heroics farming emblems and don't want fresh 80's holding them back. I'd still argue it's not going to make it exceptionally difficult to find a reasonable group for Heroics. I still PUG a lot of Heroics and meet plenty of perfectly cordial folks.

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Damn Zar, you are really going after the gear score threads today.

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Q u o t e:


I currently raid with zero healing assistance addons.

I use mouseover macros but that is something that I coded into the in game system.

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Well you are indeed a rarity then. I know merely suggesting it to some healers will give you a hot lil ear-full.

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Q u o t e:

I agree completely. I see people saying "must be geared/have achievements" when looking for raid members. This isn't fundamentally different from the way the game has always been. Suddenly it's just become a huge topic of discussion on the forums.

I strongly disagree that this shows the sense of community on a given realm is diminished, or that player have lost their heart. I would also disagree with those arguing that they don't have the opportunity to get geared because people don't run the content they need to run to obtain the gear they need. I see raids going for all instances across several realms. I see more people running Heroics now than ever.

If anything, we're probably seeing more discussion about this because more raids are being done in pick-up groups, or partial pick-up groups. In the original game and the first expansion, raiding was primarily a guild thing. It required a set group of players with synergy and commitment to succeeding. Naturally, now that content is more accessible to more players, you're going to see more open judgment of players as raid groups are being filled. This is the way it's always been, except it used to take place primarily within the guild rather than within the realm.

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TL:DR

Used to be a guild recruitment issue now that raids can be made with pugs it's a realm issue.

But spot on imo.

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Q u o t e:


Granted, but the philosophy towards learning curves and the willingness to wipe has gone down considerably. We want more difficult content but we're scared to wipe 3 times learning a new boss.

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This. Exhisting raid content has been moving towards PuG'ing for some time now. Ulduar was a guild-only raid for only a few months before the first PuGs began to successfully run portions, if not all, of it. That said, many of the members of the PuG are members of guilds that are not running that content anymore...or perhaps are trying to make up for a missed raid that week by PuG'ing it. They are expecting it to be a wipe-free endeavor b/c that's how it was with their guild. Clearly, this isn't going to be the case.

Learning bosses can be hard...and expensive. Accept it...that's just the way it is. Even with the ability to go on-line and learn about the encounters...or watch vids of it...you still have to do it to really "get it." If there is any problem with the Raid-PuG system, its this attitude. PuGers will not be as good as your guildmates that are decked out in top-tier gear. Accept that.

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Q u o t e:

I agree completely. I see people saying "must be geared/have achievements" when looking for raid members. This isn't fundamentally different from the way the game has always been. Suddenly it's just become a huge topic of discussion on the forums.

I strongly disagree that this shows the sense of community on a given realm is diminished, or that player have lost their heart. I would also disagree with those arguing that they don't have the opportunity to get geared because people don't run the content they need to run to obtain the gear they need. I see raids going for all instances across several realms. I see more people running Heroics now than ever.

If anything, we're probably seeing more discussion about this because more raids are being done in pick-up groups, or partial pick-up groups. In the original game and the first expansion, raiding was primarily a guild thing. It required a set group of players with synergy and commitment to succeeding. Naturally, now that content is more accessible to more players, you're going to see more open judgment of players as raid groups are being filled. This is the way it's always been, except it used to take place primarily within the guild rather than within the realm.

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The title has become the new troll bait. No one sees this issue happening more often in game as these trolls claim it happens.

Suddenly one person gets rejected from a PuG because of his/her gear and it's "TO THE FORUMS!!!" time to get some wild stories about similar cases and reel the trolls in with a catchy title.

So what's preferable:

The current system, where people make ridiculous standards to pug raids.

or

The old system where, without a raid guild, you didn't get to raid?

It's the very concept of Gearscore that bothers me personally.While it's not fundamentally different from the way the game has been in the past, players at least knew what they could or could not do via attunements. Players simply were not allowed in a particular area of the game until x requirements were met.

With how loosey-goosey the game is now, it's now more than ever, easier to do more difficult content regardless of gear. Now that players are nothing more than a "gearscore", it has dehumanized the game and reinforced a terrible superficial attitude amongst the player base. Just my 2 cents, but what do I know.