First of all, this thread is meant to be a mature discussion. Of course this is my sole opinion and everyone is entitled to one. Please feel free to discuss your agreements or disagreements after the jump.

I should rephrase the headliner to DPS Meters, Gearscore, Achievements, Armory etc. making WoW community in game less about community and more about stats and individual achievements?

To those of us who started in the first year of WoW it felt more like a community. Everyone was willing to group up with one another, regardless of stats. Now it feels like the racial divide we had in the mid-20th Century in the US, geared vs under-geared characters. Instead of race, its all about statistics of each character. If your character doesn't match what the raid leader is looking for then you are SOL.

WoW feels more anti-social. If you don't have the right gear, DPS, HPS, DEF cap on a tank, achievements etc you are not part of the in crowd. Of course, I'm mainly referring to raids but in any case small other nit-picky things apply as well. It varies by server.

Blizz what can you do to change this? I want WoW to feel like it was in year one where we can communicate with everyone. We want a real community back not a segregation. Please bring back the feel of joy again. I'm sure everyone at one point or another in their WoW experience have been singled out due to one of the above mentioned. I'm sure you devs and mods have too. Too many times I hear:

1. No "vent"rilo, no loot

2. Whats your DPS?

3. Checking Armory/Geaerschore before invite

4. PST w/ achievement and stats or no reply

5. Must have DBMs or some other type Boss add-ons (isn't WoW easy enough?) To those that say WoW is easy, conquer raids without using any add-ons or DBM type programs. Then we'll see how easy this game is.

Etc etc.....


I suggest WoW devs create an achievement that detects the whole raid not using any add-ons when completing a raid. That would be the true "Tribute to Insanity" achievement. No DBMs, no custom UI's, no DPS meters, threat meters and so on. They are basically the cheat codes of WoW (up up down down left right left right). Bring the player not the add-ons.

Players mentality are too reliant on the above mentioned. I hope a mod or dev sees at least the point of my post and understand what I'm trying to say. Make WoW feel like a community again and not dependent on statistics. Thats all I am asking.


Thank you for reading to those who did not TL;DR


As a quote from WoW devs, Bring the "Player" not the "Character(Class)."


EDIT: Edited for minor errors.

Epeen stroking is in fact a huge problem with the community at the moment.


Unfortunately there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. They can't solve a problem that is at it's core the fault of the players.

The players can, so I ask you, what is Serket doing to solve the problem.



I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm starting heroic PuGs (on Mitissix, my resto shaman) where I find a tank, and then grab the very first three DPS, regardless of gear score, regardless of DPS, regardless of it even being the dreaded hunter with stam gems, I take the first 3 people to send me a tell. I then go into whichever heroic was chosen and I keep that tank alive. Now I will stress something real quick and that's that the tank actually must have 535 def. He can have 24k health, but I won't compromise on 535 def. My main is in a mix of 25 Ulduar, 10 ToC, iLevel 245/232 badge gear, and Ony's healing dagger. I can pick a bad PuG up, put it on my shoulders and carry it to the last boss in a heroic if I have to.

The reason I do this is to show that not everyone who is "geared" is an elitist prick who only wants to get what they want and screw everyone else. I do this to make WoW more enjoyable for people who come into contact with me. I do it in the hopes that my being nice will cause them to reciprocate it.

Basically, I try to treat others in game as I want to be treated (unless of course they're horde, then red=dead). It seems to work fairly good too.

Simply put, some content (really all content) requires a certain level. Gearscore, Armory, and DPS are quick methods of loosely qualifying an individual for said content. They aren't perfect and should by no means be considered an absolute, but they are decent indicators. Achievements are probably the worst of the bunch because you can be AFK, following a healer the entire instance and still get credit.

I don't see anything wrong with requiring DBM and Vent. Everyone does things differently on their own, but in a given instance, things need to be done one way to win. Vent is the best and easiest way to accomplish this. Try explaining something like Yogg through Raid chat. Its also the most efficient way to call out on the fly changes, like who to Battle Rez, which DPS attacks which target, etc. etc.

Likewise, DBM is just another effort to idiot-proof your raid. Its easy to move out of the fire, but not everyone is playing on a graphic setting that makes it easy to see (and don't think to watch their debuffs). Some people get sucked into their watching their spell timers and cooldowns. Sometimes you just miss stuff. DBM helps minimize those errors and helps to make your raid the smoothest experience possible. It doesn't guarantee success. Execution is an entirely different matter.

By and large, the majority of all addons are aesthetic. DBM and Omen are the only addons I use that I consider to have helpful functions. Everything else, action bar mods, minimap mods, etc. etc. are used to make my UI suit my tastes, which ultimately results in a more enjoyable experience for me. The default UI sucks. Having an achievement for using it would be pointless.

Also, addons aren't "cheat codes." That's a gross misunderstanding of what addons do and don't do. All any addon does is redisplay already present in-game information in a more user friendly manner. That's not cheating. Its maximizing your potential. Everything any addon does can be replicated with the default UI to some extent.

Most importantly, none of these things are killing the community. The community's abuse and negligence are what's killing the community. Its an implosion from the inside out prompted by the anonymity and complete lack of consequence the internet provides. Its how it always has been and always will be. As much as people want it to change and want to be good to each other, there are just as many people perfectly content to be asshats 24/7.

I don't understand why people are so up in arms about this whole gearscore concept. First of all, if you follow the natural progression through the game's content: ding 80 > dungeons > heroics > T7 > T8 > T9, then your gearscore should always be pretty on par for what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to jump from dinging 80 straight into T9 content, then your gear score will be low, but your experience will also be quite limited and you are unlikely to succeed, regardless of gear.

I'm not saying that gearscore proves you're a great raider, but it at least shows you have a bit of experience and had a willingness to progress through content appropriately.

Now, as a raid leader, if you are trying to determine who to bring with you, what criteria would you suggest? If I were to consider multiple strangers for a DPS slot, for instance, what information do I have to go on? I can look at their class and try to figure out which might be most beneficial to the raid in terms of buffs and debuffs they bring. But what if they are all the same class? Then I really do have to look at their gear and their achievements (read "experience").

Does that mean I wouldn't bring an undergeared person into my raid? Not at all. If someone I know and trust vouched for them, that would go a long way. If I am desperate to fill a certain role or class, then I might overlook a lack of gear. But if I am evaluating perfect strangers about whom I have zero other information, gearscore and achievements can be valuable tools for building a successful raid.

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Q u o t e:
I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm starting heroic PuGs (on Mitissix, my resto shaman) where I find a tank, and then grab the very first three DPS, regardless of gear score, regardless of DPS, regardless of it even being the dreaded hunter with stam gems, I take the first 3 people to send me a tell. I then go into whichever heroic was chosen and I keep that tank alive. Now I will stress something real quick and that's that the tank actually must have 535 def. He can have 24k health, but I won't compromise on 535 def. My main is in a mix of 25 Ulduar, 10 ToC, iLevel 245/232 badge gear, and Ony's healing dagger. I can pick a bad PuG up, put it on my shoulders and carry it to the last boss in a heroic if I have to.

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This is how my husband and I do heroics pugs, also (He as a tank, me as a healer). We just grab dps and go. We make a lot more friends this way, and have more interesting conversations with each other about heroics' experiences.

Wait, so now that no game in the horizon is going to kill wow we are turning to the enemy within?

If you can't bother to gear up in regular and heroic ToC you don't deserve to raid.

People with crummy gear scores and crummy DPS hurt my gaming experience much more than people that ask for good gear scores and DPS.

IMO, addons period are killing WoW.

WoW players complain that raids are too easy, content is too easy, then they go out and download every @#$%#$ addon they can find in order to make their complaints a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I learned to raid back in the days of Everquest, where there WERE no addons or mods. You had your basic UI, whatever changes you made to your UI that floated your boat (which couldn't be overly fancy), and that was it.

There was no Deadly Boss Mods.

There was no Vent.

There was just your raid leader explaining the event beforehand, then the 56 people in the raid (down from the original 72 man raids) executed those orders with only brief typed commands and reminders from the RL during the encounter.

That is REAL raiding. Not "follow the instructions that your addon gives you as you listen to your raid leader bark orders in Vent."

May as well just bot your toon and let the AI beat the content for you.

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Q u o t e:
Wait, so now that no game in the horizon is going to kill wow we are turning to the enemy within?

If you can't bother to gear up in regular and heroic ToC you don't deserve to raid.

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This is also true to an extent. My main is geared in as much Emblem welfare gear as possible 2 piece T8/2 piece T9, with some 226 crafted epics and some 200-219 gear mixed in, mostly from ToC and H-Toc 5 mans. Yet I still have a high enough Gearscore to get into any raid I want up to and including ToC25.

You really have to put ZERO effort into gearing your character to be denied a ToC10 pug spot.

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Q u o t e:
I don't understand why people are so up in arms about this whole gearscore concept. First of all, if you follow the natural progression through the game's content: ding 80 > dungeons > heroics > T7 > T8 > T9, then your gearscore should always be pretty on par for what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to jump from dinging 80 straight into T9 content, then your gear score will be low, but your experience will also be quite limited and you are unlikely to succeed, regardless of gear.

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We're up in arms about gearscore because.

Ding 80. > Get some crafted iLevel 200 stuff or rawk the iLevel 187 stuff they got from reg dungeons (doesn't really matter heroics can be done in quest greens easily) > LFG for H Whatever > LOL Nub, go get T9.

Ummm, WTF.

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Q u o t e:


We're up in arms about gearscore because.

Ding 80. > Get some crafted iLevel 200 stuff or rawk the iLevel 187 stuff they got from reg dungeons (doesn't really matter heroics can be done in quest greens easily) > LFG for H Whatever > LOL Nub, go get T9.

Ummm, WTF.

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There is no excuse not to have epics from ToC regular.

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Q u o t e:


We're up in arms about gearscore because.

Ding 80. > Get some crafted iLevel 200 stuff or rawk the iLevel 187 stuff they got from reg dungeons (doesn't really matter heroics can be done in quest greens easily) > LFG for H Whatever > LOL Nub, go get T9.

Ummm, WTF.

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Lead your own group. 9 out of 10 players are more willing to join then they are to lead. You can make your own group, go run the instance, and then come back to trade and laugh at the guy asking for 4k+ Gearscore for H-VH still looking for a group.

It seems somewhat ridiculous to me that people hate an addon that is being abused by a few self-righteous individuals when the simple solution is being slightly proactive about your gaming experience.

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Q u o t e:


There is no excuse not to have epics from ToC regular.

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Maybe so, but you still don't NEED them to do heroics.

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Q u o t e:

I suggest WoW devs create an achievement that detects the whole raid not using any add-ons when completing a raid. That would be the true "Tribute to Insanity" achievement. No DBMs, no custom UI's, no DPS meters, threat meters and so on. They are basically the cheat codes of WoW (up up down down left right left right). Bring the player not the add-ons.

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I really think you have a distorted view of add-ons. People don't give it much thought, but the user interface is literally just that... the mechanism that allows you the player to interact with game world. Plenty of otherwise great games have been ruined by poor user interfaces. Now WoW doesn't have a bad standard UI, but it's greatest strength is that it is customizable. That is the key.

The skill (and not to mention fun) of this game is making the right decisions based on what is happening. It is not, and should not be fighting your own interface trying to get the game to do what you want it to do.

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Q u o t e:
Lead your own group. 9 out of 10 players are more willing to join then they are to lead. You can make your own group, go run the instance, and then come back to trade and laugh at the guy asking for 4k+ Gearscore for H-VH still looking for a group.

It seems somewhat ridiculous to me that people hate an addon that is being abused by a few self-righteous individuals when the simple solution is being slightly proactive about your gaming experience.

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This is effectively true.

When i'm lazy, I just stay in LFG as I do my dailies or goof off and take a group that's offered. But when I want a group NOW, I'll build my own.

Even as a DPS, I rarely spend more than 5 min building a group and going off and doing what I want to do.

I have never experienced the elitism that so many have said they had a problem with. I've just hit level 80 two weeks ago and have been running a lot of heroics. I just got my 100 badge achievement yesterday.

The question I have (and I run Recount) is what do you base your DPS off of? I've been frantically checking it while in groups because I'm always afraid someone is going to freak out if I'm doing less than 2000 DPS (and I am) but the DPS seems to vary depending on the instance and obviously on how much I am pushing my character. I *could* get more DPS in if I wanted but that would require a lot more clicking and button mashing, which really isn't required in heroics. Also depending on the place we are going my DPS can be anywhere between 1500 and 2600. So what do I judge my DPS on? My "average" between most runs in Heroics? What I get against the targets in Ironforge? The average in raids (which seems to be higher but I think that's because the fights go on longer). As of right now I"m just telling people 2k if they ask (and only guildies have so far) but I'm wondering if I'm doing that wrong?

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Q u o t e:
1. No "vent"rilo, no loot

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There are plenty of times when everyone is on the same page and the run is going great except for one person always off doing their own thing and causing issues for the entire group - then we find it's because they are not on vent. It makes it easier for everyone, how is that a bad thing?

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Q u o t e:
We're up in arms about gearscore because.

Ding 80. > Get some crafted iLevel 200 stuff or rawk the iLevel 187 stuff they got from reg dungeons (doesn't really matter heroics can be done in quest greens easily) > LFG for H Whatever > LOL Nub, go get T9.

Ummm, WTF.

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But there is another variable, and that's time. People like quick runs.

There are heroics you can clear in 20-minutes with a geared group but will take an hour with a bunch of fresh 80's. Similarly a Naxx can take as little as 2 hours with a geared group or as long as 7 with a bunch of under-geared players.

If all the under-geared players were willing to play together then they could take as much time as they want. The reality is that under-geared players don't want to group with other under-geared players any more than anyone else does.

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Q u o t e:


Maybe so, but you still don't NEED them to do heroics.

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Epics are like gold, you don't NEED gold but it makes your life that much easier.