Problems:

1) Wrath doesn't benefit from haste beyond ~400.
2) Moonkins aren't scaling as much as other classes (not solidly established yet, but probably true).

Contributing factors:

1) Low baseline cast time on wrath.
2) Starlight Wrath reduces the cast time on wrath.
2) Nature's Grace further reduces the cast time on wrath.
3) Eclipse forces us to use wrath.
4) Several situational haste buffs exist in the game that offer no benefit to wrath, such as Heroism/Bloodlust, Potion of Speed, Haste trinkets, etc.

Assumptions:

1) Blizzard likes to make all role-applicable stats reasonably useful to specs that use that role (Def for tanks, hit for dps, regen for casters, etc).

2) Blizzard doesn't want to further redesign eclipse. They've done plenty of tinkering with it all throughout the xpac and have stated they are fairly happy with it as it is now.

3) Blizzard doesn't want to redesign Nature's Grace. Since it is also a resto talent now mucking around with it would likely change the fundamentals of two specs.

4) Blizzard doesn't want to fundamentally change the mechanics behind either starfire or wrath.

Likely solutions:

1) Change the wrath portion of Starlight Wrath. This would not eliminate the haste soft cap, but would raise it to a much easier to work with number. Wrath would still be our "fast nuke."

2) Introduce a glyph that affects wrath's cast time. It would have to be comparable to the power boost provided by other glyphs in addition to allowing wrath to further scale with haste or it would be a failure.

3) Increase the baseline cast time of wrath by at least .5 seconds, with a proportional scale in base damage.

4) Allow balance druids to scale some other way with haste, such as through hasted dots or some alternate mechanic. This doesn't address the core mechanics problem with wrath, but would allow us to scale similarly to other dps classes (once that is solidly established as a problem, which I'm fairly sure it will be in IC).

Ignoring our assumptions, other possible solutions:

4) Assuming Blizzard could be persuaded to change Nature's Grace, it could be redesigned to give say 10% haste and 10% crit. Wouldn't be terrible for resto that way, but technical difficulties could be encountered as to when haste and crit are actually applied (haste at the beginning of spell cast and crit when a spell lands).

5) Redesign Eclipse to not be mutually exclusive and have no (or a greatly reduced) cooldown. It already has a very high % uptime. A change like this would give us more control over which eclipse we would like to use while not letting us fall into a highly predictable rotation. Since you can only cast one spell at a time the only added benefit would be the extra uptime and the ability to choose one over the other when both proc. This would lessen the pain of eclipse forcing wrath for a large part of our rotation.

6) Change core mechanics to make wrath benefit more from haste. It could become a longer cast for more damage with each successive cast for example.

7) Find another way to scale moonkin damage while leaving the value of haste to us untouched. Damage contribution from spirit gets brought up frequently.

The most pvp-friendly option is the glyph option. Increasing the cast time of wrath any other way would likely break what is left of moonkin pvp.

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Q u o t e:

So, let me ask a question. Is the moonkin's current problem that we don't scale well with Haste Rating past 400, or that Moonkin don't scale well at the higher levels of gear? They are two very different concerns.

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It's a difficult question to answer. I don't know the theorycrafting enough behind every other casting class/spec combination in order to accurately determine how Druids scale in relation to one another, and even with the most optimal information, it would still be very difficult to say with 100% certainty.

The best I can go off of is Simcraft stat values. Looking at all of the values, we seem to be one of the most evenly scaling classes. In fact, when you total all of the scaling components together to find a total scaling value, there are only two class/spec combinations which theoretically scale better than us; Arcane and Fire Mages. Everyone else is actually below our total scaling value given the data of Simcraft. However, I can't honestly attest for the accuracy in the values placed for Druids, nor any of the other classes for that matter.

According to Simcraft, Balance scales with Crit vastly superior to how it scales with Haste; Crit having a value of 1.51 and Haste having a value of 1.21. They give Spell Power a value of 1.65, so, normalizing it to where Spell Power has a value of 1, Crit would hold a value of 0.915 and Haste a value of 0.733.

This is vastly different from the weight you gave them; Crit having 0.782 after 400 Haste and 0.795 before, and Haste having 0.816 after 400 Haste and 1.034 before.

Also according to SimCraft, our max possible DPS is only 700 DPS less than the top DPS value. There are other anomalies, such as Warriors being below Balance, and everyone else for that matter, which aren't adding up and leads to the belief that SimCraft has a flaw somewhere in some section of its data set. Then again, these are against Patchwerk style fights and not the fights we actually see in game, which does hold a significant difference.

Is Balance too low? Is it even really lower than Feral? How much lower? They are difficult questions to answer, and the question gets complicated by game mechanics. Feral, and melee in general, usually don't have to deal with adds while Balance and other casters generally do. This inherently leads to lower DPS values. Some melee also have very high AoE powerful, and some even have this AoE within their standard single target rotation or can weave it into their single-target rotation without suffering major DPS penalties.

They are different questions that are similar in many ways and all of them need answers. If our DPS is low now and our scaling is low, then we can expect to see the issue get worse. If our DPS is high now and our scaling is low, then we might reach a point where an issue is created. If our DPS is low and our scaling is high, we might see the issue resolve itself. If our DPS is high and our scaling is high, then we might reach a point where the opposite problem is created.

This is the predominate reason why I have been trying, to some extent, to focus more on the matter of Wrath, Haste, and the GCD than Balance (or any class') overall performance. I cannot say with any measure of certainty if Druids are under or over performing, or if we are performing just fine. What I can say is that Wrath casting under the GCD is an issue, and that the issue is complicated by Haste; a stat we cannot avoid. This is why I would like a fix which does inherently cause a net-gain in DPS but is rather DPS neutral. While there would be a DPS gain at levels of Haste above 400, we aren't speaking in the same terms as the DPS increase in, say, Shadow having all DoTs effected by Haste.

In my opinion, such a fix is very eloquent because it performs exactly as it should. It holds little effect to those whom wouldn't really be having DPS issues (or at least theoretically shouldn't) due to their current gearing state, but would increase the DPS of those on the higher end of gearing wherein we start to hear of the issue of low Balance DPS cropping up.

Just an idle thought, how would /stopcasting macros fit into this?

I think the Balance design is...well ...balanced. It just sounds like people want wrath cast time increased so they can stack haste more. Then what? stack less crit....sounds like a trade off not a buff or "fix". Then haste becomes too huge as it will effect our required setup with eclipse.

There's choices in the game, make em. If you think hitting, coming close, and/or breaking the GCDmin is negatively affecting you, then adjust gear. Most of us know what crit does for us especially with the 2T9.

I believe it's more of....we don't have options, such as genesis not being a good choice over cast time reduction in order to move to tier2. 3 glyphs are mandatory to basically keep us on par with other dps'rs, a couple glyphs are extremely situational only, and the rest are an absolute waste of game space.

Overall I like the synergy of the talents, I think it's a good design...with the eclipse CD fix,

Since this is about haste and GCD wrath and stuff, i'll stick to that.

Improve genesis for our DoTs - add haste? dmg%? multiplier? crit? give us an option in tier1
Glyphs - allow haste to affect? maybe only moonfire since IS is pretty quick....then allow IMF to add ability to crit also.
Nature's Grace - haste affects dots?
Eclipse - remove CD? allow people to choose which eclipse to constantly use?

as a side note - add Bloodlust to Force of Nature, if our trees are gonna die in PvP the talent is useless. There are so few of us that it won't tip the balance. It can fit in lore-wise. It's so far down that only boomkins will get it. I want to use it in 10m =p i'm not that far out there am i? and you gave all other buffs to items, time to share.

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Q u o t e:
Just an idle thought, how would /stopcasting macros fit into this?

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The issue is that, the cast has already completed yet the GCD is not up yet, thus you cannot use any other actions in order to que up another spell. Since /stopcasting does not negate the GCD, it, unfortunately, does not help the issue.

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Q u o t e:
I think the Balance design is...well ...balanced. It just sounds like people want wrath cast time increased so they can stack haste more. Then what? stack less crit....sounds like a trade off not a buff or "fix". Then haste becomes too huge as it will effect our required setup with eclipse.

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that's why I think it can't really be "fixed" until Cataclysm...

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Q u o t e:
I think the Balance design is...well ...balanced. It just sounds like people want wrath cast time increased so they can stack haste more. Then what? stack less crit....sounds like a trade off not a buff or "fix". Then haste becomes too huge as it will effect our required setup with eclipse.

There's choices in the game, make em. If you think hitting, coming close, and/or breaking the GCDmin is negatively affecting you, then adjust gear. Most of us know what crit does for us especially with the 2T9.

I believe it's more of....we don't have options, such as genesis not being a good choice over cast time reduction in order to move to tier2. 3 glyphs are mandatory to basically keep us on par with other dps'rs, a couple glyphs are extremely situational only, and the rest are an absolute waste of game space.

Overall I like the synergy of the talents, I think it's a good design...with the eclipse CD fix,

Since this is about haste and GCD wrath and stuff, i'll stick to that.

Improve genesis for our DoTs - add haste? dmg%? multiplier? crit? give us an option in tier1
Glyphs - allow haste to affect? maybe only moonfire since IS is pretty quick....then allow IMF to add ability to crit also.
Nature's Grace - haste affects dots?
Eclipse - remove CD? allow people to choose which eclipse to constantly use?

as a side note - add Bloodlust to Force of Nature, if our trees are gonna die in PvP the talent is useless. There are so few of us that it won't tip the balance. It can fit in lore-wise. It's so far down that only boomkins will get it. I want to use it in 10m =p i'm not that far out there am i? and you gave all other buffs to items, time to share.

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This would be nice, if the choice actually existed. You cannot avoid Haste, just as you cannot avoid Crit. Item drops do not come in perfect tailored forms where each slot has a Crit/Spirit, Haste/Spirit, or Crit/Haste option ( and even if it did the Crit/Haste option would always be best.)

This is not about what you stack, but what you gain, and how those gains effect your DPS - in essence, scaling. Scaling is important, scaling matters. Scaling is why Affliction went from high end DPS to below Destruction. Scaling is why Elemental started out alright, but then dropped off the planet.

You can take all of the classes, all of the specs, and work with them in a basic environment where everything is perfectly 100% balanced when their gear only provides 1,000 Spell Power, 10% Crit, and 10% Haste, but nothing within that balancing ensures that this will remain true when the stats change to 3,500 Spell Power, 50% Crit, and 35% Haste. Combine that with different specs scaling with each stat differently and each stat having different availability on gear and this is how issues are created.

People speak in terms of balance as if it were easy. They throw off changes and suggestions without completely looking at all of the relevant factors. Balance can change drastically from raid instance to raid instance because different stats can change drastically. Itemization, talents, spells, cast times, scaling - all of these things are factors, all of them matter. To balance this game around a singular data point is to invite failure.

If you can find it, a thread that I created a long, long time ago on this very issue proved this. I had thought that the easiest solution to this very issue was to simply create a new spell with a base cast of 2.5 seconds that would essentially replace Wrath completely in a PvE setting. Wrath would become solely a leveling/PvP ability. No matter what I tweaked, no matter what I changed, no matter what I did - I could not get this spell to be balanced. My effort was to get the spell to have as close to Starfire's DPS as humanly possible, but it simply could not be done. I changed it's Spell Power conversion, I changed it's base damage, I added and removed it from various talents; nothing at all would work. Either the spell could not put out enough damage at lower gearing values, or it put out far too much DPS at higher gearing values.

Things have changed since this; Nature's Grace changed, our DoTs changed, Eclipse changed, the expected value of stats changed, so maybe it is possible now. Maybe a balanced 2.5 second spell could be created, maybe I'll even try to do it again just for fun. But, the point is - game design, game balance, is not easy. Creating a wide array of scaling variables and vastly different talents for vastly different spells is not a simple task.

Wrath is not functioning; Balance Druid scaling is not functioning. It may have an appearance of working now, but the now means little when there is always a new raid, always new and better items.

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Q u o t e:

Someone failed 2nd grade!

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I did? Allow me to re-phrase myself: This thread started out as a good discussion of how Haste is affecting the Balance tree with the new light on Haste affecting DoTs and how it affected our casting of Wrath - the rare 1.5 second spammable nuke that no other class in the game shares. My comment was in light of the debate on how Eclipse is the core of boomkin problems - and it is rightfully so - but it wasn't the intended part of this thread.

Wisp - I respect you a lot, I still will after this comment, but if you don't agree with my point of view, at least there is a better way of saying it than calling me illiterate or dumb :)

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Q u o t e:


That is a rather narrow point of view. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Is the problem and OP really about Haste-GCD-Wrath? I would argue that the topic is really Moonkin Scaling and DPS, and Haste-GCD-Wrath is a part of that discussion but not the only part.

2. If you look at it from only the Haste-GCD-Wrath perspective, what is the cause of the problem? (this is important because it identifies possible solutions) You could argue (and some have), that his is only a problem because we cast wrath. If we didn't cast wrath there would be no problem. So, why do we cast wrath? Because Eclipse makes it beneficial. Therefore, Eclipse is part of the cause of the Haste-GCD-Wrath issue. Therefore, it is reasonable to talk about changing Eclipse as a possible solution.

I agree that the conversation has wondered a little bit, but not in any unreasonable way.

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The problem does not stem with Eclipse in my POV. Eclipse forces us to use both our spells - Wrath + Starfire in approximately equal proportions. Some like it, some don't - but that is a design debate, not exactly a Haste/GCD/Wrath situation. On the other hand, the problem of GCD clipping exists because we cast wrath - and yes, you are correct in saying that the problem will not exist if we do not cast it. However, I doubt that is the road that any of us would want to take at this point.

One big cause of the problem is that Boomkins have 26% base Haste, on top of the 0.5 second cast time reduction that all classes already have. So inherently, we are running with a 0.7 - 0.8 second cast time reduction as opposed to other casters. No other DPS is running around with that much. The fact that Haste has ballooned on gear these days, having so much haste is actually detrimental to our overall DPS since it results in us having 'idle' time - the difference of GCD (1.0 second) - Wrath Cast time (0.7 - 1.0 seconds).

This said idle time is going to inflate even more in ICC. It would be nigh impossible to avoid 650-700 haste and my personal guess is that we will be around 800-850 haste in the mix of BiS / 10-heroic / 25-normal gear.

I'm pretty sure that there are no plans of changing Eclipse before Cataclysm. Sadly, the devs will never let us know their true intention - GC loves to put it 'We may look at it', which leaves a lot of things to open debate. This, I think, is not a good way to diagnose problems - since one side of the feedback team (players) is always kept in the dark. I'm sure GC disagrees - sometimes, the less we know, the better it is. But I feel otherwise. At this juncture, we do not know for sure what is realistically open to change and it keeps feeding the 'trolls' (including me) with that glimmer of hope :)

Couldn't they just make Nature's Grace be 20% haste to all spells but Wrath, and then make it +15% crit for Wrath?

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Q u o t e:
Couldn't they just make Nature's Grace be 20% haste to all spells but Wrath, and then make it +15% crit for Wrath?

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Changing how NG affects Wrath in PVP is a fairly lengthy debate - one that must be considered after a lot of thought. 15% crit is also overboard because under eclipse, when you're already getting a 30% damage buff. Add 15% - and it becomes a very potent spell.

There is one major design flaw that Blizzard made: Wrath + Starfire being the same spells on different Cast times. Eclipse in its current state makes it even more so. In current parses, most boomkins the amount of damage done by wrath and starfire are very close to each other.

Making one spell way too good over the other is something that would create even more and bigger problems. Pre 3.1 for e.g., Starfire was the staple spell. You'd cast wrath only to get ur proc, and move on to starfire spam. In 3.2, it was changed so that you would use both spells. In 3.3, making one trump the other would be going back to the start, only exchanging one spell with the other.

I personally think that they should reduce the cast times of both starfire and wrath to a base of 1.75 and 2.25 seconds respectively (Talented, they would become 1.25 and 2.0 second casts). And remove the haste component from NG and instead make it a spellpower proc. When you crit, you get NG that lasts for 8 seconds and you have a spellpower modifier of 15-20%.

That would allow us to keep all 3 stats: Crit, Haste, Spellpower as part of the gear selection. You want hit to get NG procs. You would want SP to get more out of NG. And you will again want a substantial amount of haste to get most number of casts out of Eclipse.

It also becomes a decent choice for PVP by having one spell that is on a 1.0 - 1.25 second cast and the other at a 1.75-2.0 second cast after being modified for haste.

Edit: Seeing how NG is a staple resto talent too, I think it might have to be moved down 1 step to make it balanced for Resto druids as well. They are now getting a good amount of haste from their own talent (Gift of the Earthmother change in 3.3).

So, I've been trying to think of a way to properly model a good comparison between a Haste-stacking non-Eclipse rotation and a non-Haste stacking Eclipse rotation. Without realistic gearing choices, it's been difficult, since configuring how much Crit or even Spell Power you may lose or gain in order to reach specific Haste variables is difficult to pin down. Then I realized, it really doesn't matter. The rotation doesn't matter; you only need to compare two different spells. If there is a point in Haste wherein standard Starfire outDPS an Eclipsed Wrath, then Eclipse becomes worthless - to a degree at least, there would still be the possibility of casting Wrath to proc Lunar would increase DPS, but, that's a separate issue.

For this, I'm going to push stats fairly high. Potentially lower than what we might actually see, but, then again, potentially higher.

Stats After Raid Buffs
Spell Power: 4,200
Haste: 30.50% from gear (raid Haste buffs are modeled into the calculations separately)
Crit: 25.16% from gear, 48.95% for Wrath, 51.95% for Starfire

Wrath

Damage
(662 + (4200 * .671)) * 1.43 * 1.03 * 1.04 * (1 + ((.4895 * 1.09) * 1)) * 1.13 * 1.03 = 9515.37325

Average Cast Time
((1.5 / 1.114) / ((1 + (30.5 / 100))) = 1.0318

1 - ((1 - .4898)^3) = 0.867192879

(1 * .8672) + (1.0318 * .1328) = 1.0042

DPS
9515.37325 / 1.0042 = 9475.57583

Starfire

Damage
(1130 + (4200 * 1.2)) * 1.1 * 1.03 * 1.04 * (1 + ((.5195 * 1.09) * 1)) * 1.13 * 1.03 = 13253.377

Average Cast Time
((3 / 1.114) / ((1 + (30.5 / 100))) / (1 + (.2 * (1 -(1-.5195)^2)) = 1.7885

DPS
13253.377 / 1.7885 = 7410.331

Okay, so, even with 1,000 Haste Rating, the DPS of an Eclipsed Wrath 2,000 over that of a standard Starfire cast. While these calculations do not take the latency of sub-1 second casts into account, that should not effect Wrath's DPS by 2,000.

Honestly, I'm not surprised by these results. Wrath scales better with both Crit and Spell Power than Starfire does, so even though I left Crit relatively high (at standard ToC 25 gearing level) I did increase Spell Power by a hefty amount. It might be too much or it might not be enough, we don't know for sure at this point in time. If Spell Power goes high, then it wouldn't really matter since Wrath would keep going up in DPS, and the likelihood that Spell Power would drop low enough to make Starfire scale betyond Wrath's DPS is unlikely.

However, there is one other option I think that needs to be explored with this data set: the comparison of a non-Eclipsed Wrath. Since all other factors aside from damage would remain constant, the only thing that needs to be done is to recalculate the damage.

(662 + (4200 * .671)) * 1.13 * 1.03 * 1.04 * (1 + ((.4895 * 1.09) * 1)) * 1.13 * 1.03 = 7519.1411

7519.1411 / 1.0042 = 7487.69279

So, even at this point in Haste, Wrath deals approximately the same level of damage as Starfire does. This is fine - this is to be expected because, in theory, both spells are constructed to scale at exactly the same variable ratio. Wrath's improved gains from Crit and Spell Power do not over-come Starfire's gains from Haste, they merely cancel it out. But, casting at far below the GCD is going to introduce latency to every Wrath you cast. Say this means that you cast every Nature's Grace'd Wrath at a 1.1 speed (the base 1 second GCD limit + a variable of latency)? That would change Wrath's DPS to this

(1.1 * .8672) + (1.0318 * .1328) = 1.0909

7519.1411 / 1.0909 = 6892.60345

Latency causes Wrath to lose approximately 600 DPS, or an 8.7% loss in DPS. For the Eclipsed Wrath, it goes to

9515.37325 / 1.0909 = 8722.49817

In this case, latency causes a loss of 700 DPS, or a 7.39% loss.

It should be noted that the 600 and 700 numbers are just specific data points and do not actually represent anything outside of the confines of this sample. The higher your Crit, the more Nature's Grace will be up and thus the more your DPS will suffer. The higher your latency, the longer it will take you to cast after each spell and thus your DPS will suffer.

To a rotation, we are probably looking at around a 500 DPS loss if your playing level allows for your to model the numbers above. The absurd level that this could scale to based upon lag or human reaction is rather ridiculous. If you play at around 300 MS - you are probably looking at around a 1,000 DPS loss to your rotation. These are all very significant numbers.

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Q u o t e:
So in theoretical-space, how much do think these problems go away if haste doesn't bump into the global cooldown for some of these spells?

I know it's cumbersome to explore why that would be the case, because I don't want to stipulate that haste rating just gets cut in half or whatever. I also think it complicates things when you start talking about all the added benefits of spells becoming instant (such as being able to move and not being interruptable).

I'm trying to get at whether it is the way different spells behave under haste or whether it's the GCD that's the problem.

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Can I have haste effect my GCD?

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Q u o t e:


I agree. I would not like to see a "fix" to scaling issues in the form of:

1) More damage from spirit while in Moonkin form. If in pvp Moonkins weren't required to shapeshift and shapeshift often this would be less of an issue, but I cringe every time I shift out to heal with 200 less spell power because the spirit->damage conversion only applies to MK form.

2) More damage from Eclipse. The eclipse mechanic simply doesn't work in a pvp environment given our current (lack of) tools. Chain-casting critting Wraths? Not going to happen.

If a nerf to Nature's Grace is warranted, then I'd really like for the damage to be shifted to our DoTs as long as we are also given some sort of dispel protection/deterrence ie: When your Insect Swarm or Moonfire are dispelled there is a chance equal to your critical strike % that your next Starfire will become instant cast and cost no mana but be incapable of a critical strike.

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I'll say it again, the flat-out simplest and best way to fix gcd clipping on Wrath is to change Nature's Grace to boost the crit chance of Wrath, leaving the current effect in place for all other spells.

This change would eliminate the need to adjust the gcd or haste or wrath until we get into the 1000+haste range on gear and also make Eclipse, our main damage talent, easier to use in PVP.

unfortunately boomers, with current game mechanics, you are fluxed.

updating the GCD cap with haste will have very very very drastic changes to a lot of classes, thus will have to be address during Cataclysm, if at all.

I would say, just keep that in mind when recommending haste changes as for any potential buff/nerf prior to 4.0, it needs to fit into current game mechanics.

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Q u o t e:
I agree Nature's Grace is a big part of the problem here. We changed Gift of the Earth Mother for pretty similar reasons. However, Nature's Grace is a Really Big Deal. We honestly keep talking about changing it, but we're also paranoid about screwing it up because Balance dps is dependent on it. NG is probably an overbudget talent, but in this case if we nerfed iit, we'd have to mess with Balance in a lot of other areas to compensate. We'll almost certainly do it at some point, but I worry about messing with it for 3.3.

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Sounds reasonable... just please keep an eye on us as ICC comes along and gear gets even better. As you know haste only goes so far with us.... im worried the better the gear the further we will continue to fall mid to late ICC.

While we can keep up to an extent, we can only do so much to stay in contention. I really dont want to become my guilds shadowpriest (props to their buffs however).

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Q u o t e:
I agree Nature's Grace is a big part of the problem here. We changed Gift of the Earth Mother for pretty similar reasons. However, Nature's Grace is a Really Big Deal. We honestly keep talking about changing it, but we're also paranoid about screwing it up because Balance dps is dependent on it. NG is probably an overbudget talent, but in this case if we nerfed iit, we'd have to mess with Balance in a lot of other areas to compensate. We'll almost certainly do it at some point, but I worry about messing with it for 3.3.

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NG is an interesting proc but it does mess with wraths GCD

try and find a change that can help alleviate that

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Q u o t e:
I agree Nature's Grace is a big part of the problem here. We changed Gift of the Earth Mother for pretty similar reasons. However, Nature's Grace is a Really Big Deal. We honestly keep talking about changing it, but we're also paranoid about screwing it up because Balance dps is dependent on it. NG is probably an overbudget talent, but in this case if we nerfed iit, we'd have to mess with Balance in a lot of other areas to compensate. We'll almost certainly do it at some point, but I worry about messing with it for 3.3.

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Don't change Nature's Grace for 3.3. Let the change happen for Cataclysm, where the rest of the talents can be re-balanced to compensate for it. Nature's Grace has to be changed in a major talent-tree revamp, and Cataclysm gives us that opportunity (and it's really not that far away).

Changing nature's grace in 3.3 would cause really big problems for both moonkin & resto druids (restos pick up NG, too!).

Maybe revamping the Celestial focus talent (it's only 3% haste) would be a better short-term solution, since the impact of losing 3% haste could be easily accommodated for in a DPS buff in some way to the talent. Having the flexibility of 3% more haste from gear would be an okay short-term solution.

Celestial Focus could be changed to have: A) A PvP survivability component (yay pvp!), and B) another damage increase in some other way. I'd even argue that you could drop the spell pushback resistance component from Celestial focus and just re-design that talent for 3.3, and then deal with the bigger haste issues later.

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Q u o t e:


Sounds reasonable... just please keep an eye on us as ICC comes along and gear gets even better. As you know haste only goes so far with us.... im worried the better the gear the further we will continue to fall mid to late ICC.

While we can keep up to an extent, we can only do so much to stay in contention. I really dont want to become my guilds shadowpriest (props to their buffs however).

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I'm getting the feeling that based on what GC just said, you'll see more leather with crit on it. Resto druids have a fairly low haste cap as well so I see the spellpower leather having even more spirit and even more crit on it. There will still be the pieces with haste on it, I just don't see as much being tossed around.

At least that's what the optimist in me is saying.

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Q u o t e:
I agree Nature's Grace is a big part of the problem here. We changed Gift of the Earth Mother for pretty similar reasons. However, Nature's Grace is a Really Big Deal. We honestly keep talking about changing it, but we're also paranoid about screwing it up because Balance dps is dependent on it. NG is probably an overbudget talent, but in this case if we nerfed iit, we'd have to mess with Balance in a lot of other areas to compensate. We'll almost certainly do it at some point, but I worry about messing with it for 3.3.

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It does need to be done. Reflecting back on it talking with some friends last night, Nature's Grace has really been a problem since Late Naxx/Ulduar that we just never took the time to notice. It sounds like you want 3.3 to be out by the end of the year, which means yeah, you can't really do much with NG now. Unless you want to push back the whole patch just for us (which I wouldn't say no to, but the rest of the world might not be too happy) or plan a 3.4 and surprise us with content we didn't know you had plans for (similar to ZA's patch) then really you might as well wait for Cataclysm when you can make the vast, sweeping changes you want and need to make with plenty of time to get it all taken care of.