WF doesn't grant ranged haste. Steady is about a 1.49 cast time for a BM hunter with just quiver + talents.

But yes, different haste problems. Balance has an easily reached haste cap, and then haste is nearly worthless but it's an excellent stat on the way there. Hunters gain so little from haste that it's a terrible, terrible dps stat at any and all levels.

my main problem with this post is that the op thinks balance druids are a class.

other than that.....the whole idea of a gcd is to make it so you cant spam spells with low or non-existant cast times as fast as your finger can move up and down.

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Q u o t e:
my main problem with this post is that the op thinks balance druids are a class.

other than that.....the whole idea of a gcd is to make it so you cant spam spells with low or non-existant cast times as fast as your finger can move up and down.

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I do? o.O

I think Balance Druids are a spec of a class, I do not think they are an entirely different class in of themselves.


I'm not entirely sure how you came about this conclusion.

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Q u o t e:
WF doesn't grant ranged haste. Steady is about a 1.49 cast time for a BM hunter with just quiver + talents.

But yes, different haste problems. Balance has an easily reached haste cap, and then haste is nearly worthless but it's an excellent stat on the way there. Hunters gain so little from haste that it's a terrible, terrible dps stat at any and all levels.

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Hmmm, interesting. I had assumed that Steady Shot functioned as a standard casting spell, but upon reading up I see I am wrong. How very strange for an ability to be both a 'ranged attack' and a 'casted' ability' at the same time.

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The issue Balance Druids have with Haste is two-fold. First, Balance Druids are the only casters in the game whom use a 1.5 second cast spell as a central part of their rotation. Second, Balance Druids are one of only two classes, Destruction Warlocks being the other, that can not only reach but completely blow through the 1 second cast time limit of the GCD. For Warlocks using Incinerate or Chaos Bolt, this isn't an issue because they would need thousands of Haste to cap out their spells, but, for Balance Druids, we only need the lowly little number of 400.

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that is from your original post.

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Well, marks and SV are fine. BM is still behind by quite a bit.

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That's not a problem with Serpent's Swiftness though.

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that is from your original post.

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You're nit-picking words and ignoring the rest of the post.

God you ARE retarded!

5 pages later and an almost perfectly written thread. And still no response from Blue. Yes, I know this is considered 'fishing' for blue, but really it is getting nowhere.

Most of the better boomkins have been very constructive and legitimate in asking for solutions for very valid points. The non-boomkins tend to (mostly) agree as well. A small post that we're looking into it and/or we have something in planned before the next expansion is really helpful.

If not, might as well throw in the towel and re-roll a pure like everyone else. Extremely frustrating to see the shaman / priest threads get countless responses after each build and boomkins remain 'unheard'. I know GC + other devs read these threads, but is it really so hard to simply post a reply saying that your concerns are valid / invalid. We are looking into it / We think it is working as intended.

Something to help us move this conversation further. This is all I'm asking for.

/sigh

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that is from your original post.

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I was merely using class to reference the Druid since saying spec over and over again gets tiresome. But, either way you look at it, I'm at least fair since I also, looking at from your perspective, said that Destruction Warlocks are their own class.

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Q u o t e:
5 pages later and an almost perfectly written thread. And still no response from Blue. Yes, I know this is considered 'fishing' for blue, but really it is getting nowhere.

Most of the better boomkins have been very constructive and legitimate in asking for solutions for very valid points. The non-boomkins tend to (mostly) agree as well. A small post that we're looking into it and/or we have something in planned before the next expansion is really helpful.

If not, might as well throw in the towel and re-roll a pure like everyone else. Extremely frustrating to see the shaman / priest threads get countless responses after each build and boomkins remain 'unheard'. I know GC + other devs read these threads, but is it really so hard to simply post a reply saying that your concerns are valid / invalid. We are looking into it / We think it is working as intended.

Something to help us move this conversation further. This is all I'm asking for.

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GC doesn't make it a habit to post in my threads, but I can assure you that he does read most of them. He reads most of the threads that come up onto these forums.

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Q u o t e:
5 pages later and an almost perfectly written thread. And still no response from Blue. Yes, I know this is considered 'fishing' for blue, but really it is getting nowhere.

Most of the better boomkins have been very constructive and legitimate in asking for solutions for very valid points. The non-boomkins tend to (mostly) agree as well. A small post that we're looking into it and/or we have something in planned before the next expansion is really helpful.

If not, might as well throw in the towel and re-roll a pure like everyone else. Extremely frustrating to see the shaman / priest threads get countless responses after each build and boomkins remain 'unheard'. I know GC + other devs read these threads, but is it really so hard to simply post a reply saying that your concerns are valid / invalid. We are looking into it / We think it is working as intended.

Something to help us move this conversation further. This is all I'm asking for.

/sigh

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You're forgetting that shaman and shadowpriests can have band-aid fixes put on their problems to get them to the next expansion. We cannot. Our problems go beyond band-aid fixes and repair before Cataclysm Beta. The only constructive thing GC can really do at this point is acknowledge the concerns. There's really nothing they can do for ICC to REALLY help us like they've been able to do for shadowpriests, frost mages and shaman. Honestly, if GC came in here and simply said "Concerns are noted, we're looking into it but can't promise anything in time for 3.3" what would happen? Rome would burn with people that would do nothing but !**!@ and complain. It would hurt the thread more than it helped.

They know the issues:
1. Wrath and GCD
2. We only have 1 nuke that we can press 2 buttons to cast it.
3. Eclipse.

Those are THE moonkin pve issues and you can't fix those in a patch, you have to take an expansion to do it.

I really thought we would get a blue response on this thread. Haste affecting dots will be completely useless for some of us. I also think it will make healing in pvp to op for a resto druid.

Haste as it sits now is bad for moonkins past 400....FACT

Dropping haste gear is very very hard.

Wrath needs to be fixed...

I read this and was like no way we dont get attention on this issue with this thread. Perhaps they like the way we are. Funny how shadow priest will be getting a much needed boost. Mages who was doing great pve dmg got a huge boost to arcane. And no news on the problems with moonkin.

This thread has been a good thread and while we know this problem has existed for a long time they choose to ignore it and try to make haste even more desirable.

How about this...

Lets make moonkin haste to wrath stop at the gcd and all additional haste be converted to crit for wrath.
Not that complicated. when any spell reaches gcd all additional haste will be converted to crit. At least for moonkin crit and hast are about equal in comparison after the 400 haste cap to wrath.

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I really thought we would get a blue response on this thread. Haste affecting dots will be completely useless for some of us. I also think it will make healing in pvp to op for a resto druid.

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Good thing IS and MF won't be effected by haste then. Just spriests dots and resto rejuv.

Oh and shadowpriest have an 81 page thread on this forum and still haven't gotten a straight answer other than that not tracked post.

Keep working on it.

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I also think it complicates things when you start talking about all the added benefits of spells becoming instant (such as being able to move and not being interruptable).

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That can never happen.

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So in theoretical-space, how much do think these problems go away if haste doesn't bump into the global cooldown for some of these spells?

I know it's cumbersome to explore why that would be the case, because I don't want to stipulate that haste rating just gets cut in half or whatever. I also think it complicates things when you start talking about all the added benefits of spells becoming instant (such as being able to move and not being interruptable).

I'm trying to get at whether it is the way different spells behave under haste or whether it's the GCD that's the problem.

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My feeling is that it's the spells. 1.5 second spells just hurt so much more than help when you start getting into the levels of haste we're talking. The problem for wrath is that haste and the GCD make it so that we just don't spam the spell endlessly as well. We're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place atm with Wrath in particular.

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Q u o t e:
So in theoretical-space, how much do think these problems go away if haste doesn't bump into the global cooldown for some of these spells?

I know it's cumbersome to explore why that would be the case, because I don't want to stipulate that haste rating just gets cut in half or whatever. I also think it complicates things when you start talking about all the added benefits of spells becoming instant (such as being able to move and not being interruptable).

I'm trying to get at whether it is the way different spells behave under haste or whether it's the GCD that's the problem.

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Its both. The moment the cast time becomes lower than GCD haste limit of 1s, the less it helps, in part to the spell-queuing system. When you're casting under an effect that reduces the cast time below the GCD (e.g. 0.7s) and you're literally spamming the button, you're not actually firing a spell every second. You're firing every 1s + latency. If your cast time was exactly, or a little above 1s, the spell queuing system would let you spam the thing over and over without worrying about latency, so the trick is to keep your quickest spell cast-times just over 1s.

This was an issue with Backdraft until you allowed it to lower the GCD below 1s, so casting an Immolate under the effect of Backdraft (which was intended back when the Conflag glyph didn't exist) wouldn't force you to sit there casting a quick 0.6s cast, sit there for 0.4s, wait for latency, THEN start launching the next spell.

Basically, short cast-time spells in the region of 1.5-2s can be a pretty big burden when you've got a buttload of haste. Haste is great when you've just got long cast-time nukes to perform, but weaving in those short casts in high-haste situations tends to make things go a bit haywire.

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Q u o t e:
So in theoretical-space, how much do think these problems go away if haste doesn't bump into the global cooldown for some of these spells?

I know it's cumbersome to explore why that would be the case, because I don't want to stipulate that haste rating just gets cut in half or whatever. I also think it complicates things when you start talking about all the added benefits of spells becoming instant (such as being able to move and not being interruptable).

I'm trying to get at whether it is the way different spells behave under haste or whether it's the GCD that's the problem.

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Well for casters, there are two issues with haste.

1) The global cooldown. For most spells this never really becomes an issue except maybe when you are able to stack up haste with something like heroism. Wrath of course runs into this problem at very low levels of haste, both because of the short casting time and because of Nature's Grace procs. If Wrath had a slower cast time it wouldn't run into this problem as easily, but at some point there is no reason to even have both Wrath and Starfre in a PvE rotation. I'd hate for this to happen because the Eclipse mechanic as it exists right now is actually very interesting.

Maybe you make it so that Wrath can't benefit from Nature's Grace procs, but it gets an even larger bonus from Eclipse? 20% more or less permanent haste is a large bonus to have, and no matter what you do it's going to make moonkins value haste differently from other specs.

2) Spells with cooldowns. If you are limited by cooldown rather than casting time, then you don't scale with haste. DoTs are the premier example of this, but the same principle applies to stuff like Mind Blast, Conflagrate, Arcane Barrage, etc. The solution for DoTs is to have them tick faster and need them re applied more often. Maybe this results in rotations becoming unwieldy and complicated, or it results in DoTs becoming too strong in PvP. This can probably only be determined through testing.

Spells with actual cooldowns should probably have their cooldown lowered by haste. This would not only make cooldown based specs (like arcane) scale better with haste, but it would also dovetail well into DoT based specs like Affliction and Shadow. Right now you are going to run into problems where Corruption can potentially run out before Haunt even comes off of cooldown, negating some or all of the benefit of faster Corruption. If Haunt's cooldown was lowered by haste, you wouldn't run into this problem at all. Same principle applies for Mind Blast, or fitting Arcane Barrage or Fireblast or Conflag or whatever into a rotation.

Maybe this cooldown reduction should only apply to damage spells, and only those without a CC component (so it's not being used to get off more Deathcoils or Wyvern Stings, for example).

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I'm trying to get at whether it is the way different spells behave under haste or whether it's the GCD that's the problem.

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definitely the former not the latter. look at current resto for an example. They already have the 1 sec GCD on their globals, thus the haste would have to benefit the hots by ticking faster, which in some cases is counter productive to what the druid may be looking for. The hot lets you apply offensive pressure while still having your teammate covered incase of damage, when you lower the amount of time between ticks, you are basically making it a single cast heal similar to Holy Light, Flash of light, Greater heal, etc...

tools which the druid is already equipped with, if they need larger upfront heals, they have nourish and to some extent healing touch. Adding in haste, to some extent makes your hots instant cast upfront heals instead of core healing over time effects.

more so, an ability like Swiftmend becomes less useful when you are already going to see full returns from the rejuv in a shorter amount of time, and depending on how high you can stack your haste, see the same health regain in only a couple more seconds than if you spend even more mana to get the instant health gain.



Damaging classes obviously benefit tremendously from this, but its going to be a fine line for druids and hot classes. The last thing you want is Haste to be a bell curve, where over X amount actually becomes detrimental to the overall healing output.

Currently wrath is:
(1.5 second cast)/(1.2 NG * 1.03 Talent *1.03 Raid Buff * 1.03 Raid Buff) = 1.12 seconds without gear. 12% haste happens very fast... especially when you need hardly any hit. This haste cap is hit with only ~3-4 pieces of gear.

The issue becomes - scaling.

As long as every tier every class gets looked at again to make sure they do the same dps in the 25 man gear... I don't really care.

You can argue interrupts/movement... but no fight contains so much movement that the flexibility granted actually is a significant boost to dps. If it did then everyone would just bring caster/ranged dps with more instant attacks. When there is an interrupt in PVE... odds are you'll stopcast and put up a dot - risking the interrupt is not worth it (I know I use HS during the last second of flame jets/ground tremor).

Perhaps the issue is the 1 sec GCD... 0.9 sec GCD min incoming.

The real issue is that you've simply given people too much haste via buffs and talents. Nobody should have a sub-1.2 second GCD/cast naked. The game has perhaps gotten to "fast" overall, where latency/FPS is becoming a larger % of reaction time.

Lowering the max GCD from 1 second to 0.5 second would solve the problem.

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2) Spells with cooldowns. If you are limited by cooldown rather than casting time, then you don't scale with haste. DoTs are the premier example of this, but the same principle applies to stuff like Mind Blast, Conflagrate, Arcane Barrage, etc. The solution for DoTs is to have them tick faster and need them re applied more often. Maybe this results in rotations becoming unwieldy and complicated, or it results in DoTs becoming too strong in PvP. This can probably only be determined through testing.

Spells with actual cooldowns should probably have their cooldown lowered by haste. This would not only make cooldown based specs (like arcane) scale better with haste, but it would also dovetail well into DoT based specs like Affliction and Shadow. Right now you are going to run into problems where Corruption can potentially run out before Haunt even comes off of cooldown, negating some or all of the benefit of faster Corruption. If Haunt's cooldown was lowered by haste, you wouldn't run into this problem at all. Same principle applies for Mind Blast, or fitting Arcane Barrage or Fireblast or Conflag or whatever into a rotation.

Maybe this cooldown reduction should only apply to damage spells, and only those without a CC component (so it's not being used to get off more Deathcoils or Wyvern Stings, for example).

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Yes, that's another problem with haste. All you get out of haste for that spell is the shorter GCD and faster cast, but you're still only capable of casting it every X seconds, which leads to it contributing less total % of damage than it did without the haste. Your DPS might go up, but the contribution of those spells goes down, so those spells kind of roadblock you.