World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> The Opinion of Tree

Veree

Black Dragonflight

80. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:16:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Yep, Odes' post gives me an opportunity to agree with him, laugh a little, and yet continue to just die a little inside as to the future of priests. It is an effort to remain positive as a priest. I think a lot of us feel there is a double standard being applied.

Out of 25 people in our 2 raids so far this week, 5 have been druids both nights. I think there were 3 pallys one night and 4 the other night.

I am glad for the druids and pallys.

Meh, you go with what you got. Last nights TotGC we had 1 druid (R), 3 priests (1H, 1D, 1S), 4 pallys (2H, 1R, 1P) and 2 shaman (1R, 1En). Priest dominated the meters.

[ Post edited by Veree ]

Veree

Black Dragonflight

82. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:19:21 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Raiding druids will be haste softcapped when entering ICC.

Well I did get to 500 last night. Just 356 to go before 3.3.

Veree

Black Dragonflight

83. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:25:15 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Explain us again please?

Because unless I misunderstand Druids and Haste, you don't need more than 505 haste to get 1 second GCD right now. Which means you choose not to take lots of the haste gear already, currently, available to you. But in 3.3, the new 1 second GCD will be set around 850, which is easily done by gather the currently available gear, and possibly regem just a little, with SP/Haste gems, etc.

So basically, you're given the possibility to have more use for existing haste gear, while being compensated for a nerf that does not exist, through 10% more haste on your casted spells. Did I miss anything?

It is really hard to believe that people actually think the bulk of raiding druids will be soft haste capped upon entering ICC. Do you really think that GC is so stupid?

Pyxis

< Forgotten Aspects >

Hyjal

84. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:29:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

It is really hard to believe that people actually think the bulk of raiding druids will be soft haste capped upon entering ICC. Do you really think that GC is so stupid?

I'm not even in the ballpark. In fact I still think I'm looking up at 400 haste. =/

You are healer! You CANNOT Thor!

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

85. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:30:02 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Was there any thought to making Regrowth our flash heal instead? When WotLK came out, that was what Regrowth was used for, and as Regrowth had always been the closest thing we had to a flash heal, it just seemed natural to use it this way.

This would have been another way to go. The main reason we didn’t is it would just put more and more pressure on the up-front part of Regrowth and de-emphasizing the hot part in the name of rapid healing. At some point you'd reach a spell that was basically a flash heal with a trivial little hot stuck on the end for flavor. We tried to get the similar you-care-about-hots vibe with Nourish by making it heal more with hots but still heal all at once.

Q u o t e:
Is there any thought towards changing lifebloom to allow us to keep it at 3 stacks in a fight? Lifebloom was in many ways balanced for 3 stacks in WotLK, but as soon as you reach the third stack right now you need to let it drop, or lose a huge chunk of mana. This causes lifebloom to heal for an inconsistent amount on the tank, and spend over 2/3rds of it's time up weaker then it was balanced to be. It also causes a gap in the tank healing where the last one bloomed, and you haven't yet applied the new stack.

We haven’t yet come up with a design for letting this be an option (and to be fair, it is an option) without rolling LBs on multiple people becoming the best way to heal again. We could do something like let you have 3 stacks total (divided among different people if you’d like) or let you only cast on one person. Those restrictions might not be fun though, and they’d have big PvP implications.

Q u o t e:
Because a few idiot Priests spoke up and said, "Oh my, PoH is OP. What an elephant in the room". They need to take a page from Druids and never ever make any kind of reference to being OP.

Off topic, but I want to dispel the notion that if forum posters somehow keep overpowered spells a secret that we won’t catch on. We actually know what spells you cast, yanno?

Q u o t e:
It's noticeable with healers because really, all five of us have pretty different healing styles. And mixing and matching healers allows you to play off of one anothers strengths and weaknesses. You could run dual RDruid for a 10 man, and it would work. But you would be better served by duoing with a different healer.

Ultimately, we would rather you bring 10 different classes than triple up on a few. There's a reason the game has so many classes and we want to see them all out there. However, we also realize that sometimes that just won’t happen. Maybe you can’t find a paladin that day, or maybe you have two Resto shammies that you really enjoy having in your raid. In those cases we don’t want you to call the raid or have to tell one of the shammies to stay home. Our goal was to give you guys more flexibility without making the healers total carbon copies of each other. I think we’ve done pretty well in that regard for LK.

Q u o t e:
Because they love Druids. Druids are the most powerful healer in the game, and yet they're the only class Blizzard will take the time to comment about. The most annoying part is whenever they do talk about Druids they seem to be making excuses in their defense. Whenever they talk about Priests it's to make excuses as to why they shouldn't be better. Although, to be fair that hasn't actually happened in quite a while.

Enjoy your ban. This is not a helpful comment, and I suspect you know that.

Q u o t e:
To comment on this, the GotEM change hurts when dealing with target swaping and chain dispels. With dispels you can't put up enough lifeblooms to out heal the damage (it is already really close) and on target swaps you can't get heals in fast enough to keep a person up. These are already a resto druid's weak points.

I'd suggest 2 things: Increase the bloom on lifebloom to where it was in 3.1 so spam dispels don't hurt as much, and put a 30% lockout reduction in either mid resto or low balance depending if you want moonkins to get it. That allows casted heals to be more of an option instead of lockout=dead.

A more likely change is something like letting GotEM keep its current (PTR) functionality but also letting it reduce the GCD of just Lifebloom.

Q u o t e:
Fact 1: they confirmed that they didn't want Druids to spam Rejuv on 15 people.

Nope. I must have said something that made people think we felt that way. If so, my bad. What we don’t want is for keeping Rejuv on 15+ people to be so effective. Part of my post above was to try and explain our point of view in hopes that druids would somehow grow out of the notion that Blizzard loves some druid spells and hates others.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Serreck

Suramar

86. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:33:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You mean what has happened on Ulduar hard modes, and ToGC, will suddendly stop happening in ICC? Have you seen the first few bosses in ICC tested on the PTR? Many of them, will, in fact, favor HoTs.

Truth is, most fight favors HoTs spamming, if you have 15 people to cast it on. There are pretty much no fight where you need so much burst healing that Druids will feel useless, or that they need to start using their casted spells over Rejuv spamming.

Things changed, and Druids remain the same overpowered class. It used to be Lifebloom spam in BC with infinite mana, and nowadays it's Rejuv spam with every healer having infinite mana.

You mean that boss cleaves from TBC will suddenly just go away and the entire raid will start taking steady damage? Yeah right. Chain heal will rule forever ZOMG.

Druids were overpowered in TBC? Seriously? I seem to recall HoTs getting trounced by direct heals and chain heal bounces. All druids were good for was stabilizing the tank's health back then.

Shylena

< Singularity >

Skywall

87. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:38:43 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

That's kind of funny... we had 6 priests show up the other night - we ended up having to sit one. 2 went shadow, 1 disc and 2 holy.

Not to try and throw down the "lolachievements" card, but it doesn't seem like you've experienced ToGC at all. You'd see that things even out a bit more than normal which is very puggable (i.e. comp doesn't matter). On anub in 25m heroic I don't even get to heal until swarm phase. I just sit there dps'ing. Even then... druids aren't overly good on the fight.

We had a rough summer and real life has taken its toll, so we are just now up to 25 ToGC. Have had to recruit a good many and gear them. We have done 10 man except for the end Boss, and I think they got him to 1% last week. The healing combo chosen for that effort has been a disc priest, a resto druid and a holy pally.

We have had occasions with more priests in the raid, but it is normally 3. The disc priest, myself and the shadow priest.

To be honest before the last nerfs I would have been in there for the 10 mans, because I really had the choice being a co-guild leader, but I have been spending my time leveling my alts.
80 Hunter (Also a 73 Hunter)
80 Rogue
76 Warrior
73 DeathKnight
71 or 72 Warlock

My Pally is only 13 and my Druid is only 25, but I started working on the Druid last night.

I have played the game a lot. I do not expect the encounters in ToGC to be much different, but merely more demanding.

The simple fact the multiple Druid HoTs tick constantly as they are repeatedly rolled on all the targets is something that gives Druids a huge edge. I can see it has its drawbacks as far as being a fun playstyle, but again, inserting one class as supreme healer as compared to all others is not balancing the classes.

It was just substituting a new supreme class for the old one and rotating the old one to the bottom.

I recruit good & motivated players who want to raid end game
Qualified server transfer applications welcomed
You can apply and get a decision before transferring
pr.guildportal.com

Veree

Black Dragonflight

88. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:44:35 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I'm not even in the ballpark. In fact I still think I'm looking up at 400 haste. =/

Slacker.

But I do recall your excellent posts during WotLK PTR Pyxis!

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

89. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:48:21 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
We haven’t yet come up with a design for letting this be an option (and to be fair, it is an option) without rolling LBs on multiple people becoming the best way to heal again.

What we don’t want is for keeping Rejuv on 15+ people to be so effective.

Just curious, but why is one of these things more ok than the other? LB spam vs. Rejuv spam I mean.

Manjula

< Slack >

Tichondrius

90. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:48:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Nope. I must have said something that made people think we felt that way. If so, my bad. What we don’t want is for keeping Rejuv on 15+ people to be so effective. Part of my post above was to try and explain our point of view in hopes that druids would somehow grow out of the notion that Blizzard loves some druid spells and hates others.

But there is no nerf to the spell. That's the problem. Rejuv will be just as effective in ICC as it is now on live servers. The new haste requirement from gear is completely meaningless. Players have proven time and time again that given the chance, they can often times completely negate nerfs through itemization. How many nerfs to mana regen have healers had? A lot, and yet mana regen is still a complete afterthought to healers simply because of the huge amounts of regen that one gets from items. The same will hold true for this supposed Rejuv nerf. Resto druids will end up better than before simply because itemization will allow them to turn a nerf into a buff.

[ Post edited by Manjula ]

Legolawlz

Uldum

91. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:48:46 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
You mean that boss cleaves from TBC will suddenly just go away and the entire raid will start taking steady damage? Yeah right. Chain heal will rule forever ZOMG.

Druids were overpowered in TBC? Seriously? I seem to recall HoTs getting trounced by direct heals and chain heal bounces. All druids were good for was stabilizing the tank's health back then.

lol @ the resto shaman (i mean warrior alt) crying about druids in BC. grasping at straws now and it looks a bit pathetic. shaman and priests were clearly kings of healing in bc, not even close. (come to think of it, maybe this is where all the animosity comes from, so used to being #1 they feel wronged when its a level playing field)

[ Post edited by Legolawlz ]

Varuk

< Trismegistus >

Medivh

92. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:51:41 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Off topic, but I want to dispel the notion that if forum posters somehow keep overpowered spells a secret that we won’t catch on. We actually know what spells you cast, yanno?

Because this is obviously what's happened with Seal of Wisdom. After all, it's only been overpowered the entire expansion, you might change it yet. There's nothing wrong with a spell that lets you have infinite mana in some fights, and gives you 0 mana in others, right?

(To those who don't know, what I'm referring to is the practice of a holy paladin melee'ing the boss with SoW up. On fights where you can safely heal from melee this is the optimal practice and will result in you gaining more mana back from SoW than from both Illumination and Replenishment combined. It's something that's been going on for the entire expansion and is infinitely more swingy and overpowered than Spiritual Attunement ever was, but Blizzard just continues to ignore it.)

Veree

Black Dragonflight

93. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:53:28 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Just curious, but why is one of these things more ok than the other? LB spam vs. Rejuv spam I mean.

The rate. 1hz vs 1/3hz is a world of difference.

In fact I recall GC saying at one point that he was not concerned about rejuv because of its 3 sec tick. But that was before rejuv blanketing became so popular.

[ Post edited by Veree ]

Aljer

< Call of Cthulhu >

Hellscream

94. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:55:52 PM PDT

OMG Varuk, you are a traitor to the paladin class, YOU'RE FIRED!. Please turn in your bubble and hearthstone at the door

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

[ Post edited by Aljer ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

95. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:58:46 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Just curious, but why is one of these things more ok than the other? LB spam vs. Rejuv spam I mean.

Too much spamming of any one spell isn't ideal. It often means the spell is too good, but the devil is in the details.

At a very high level, you have to put Rejuv on lots of people. Even at an 18 sec duration, you can't put it on everyone in a 25 so you either pick at random, or hot your friends, or hopefully hot the folks most likely to take damage or who have taken a little damage. Rolling LB on 2-3 tanks requires less decision-making. When the little number starts getting down low, you refresh the LB. You aren't monitoring the situation or deciding who to target. You just hit the button.

Now, various healers will claim that's how they heal or that's how the class that they think is overpowered or the class they are trying to disparage heals. It depends a lot on your gear and the encounter as to whether e.g. the paladin can spam HL on the tank like a robot and literally do nothing else.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Varuk

< Trismegistus >

Medivh

96. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 01:58:50 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
OMG Varuk, you are a traitor to the paladin class, YOU'RE FIRED!. Please turn in your bubble and hearthstone at the door

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

Hey man, he said he knows what spells we cast, there was no point in hiding it any more!

SO SORRY DON"T TAKE MY BUBBLE!

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

97. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 02:02:26 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Because this is obviously what's happened with Seal of Wisdom. After all, it's only been overpowered the entire expansion, you might change it yet. There's nothing wrong with a spell that lets you have infinite mana in some fights, and gives you 0 mana in others, right?

There's a lot wrong with it, but paladins without SoW regen would be miserable to play and largely ineffective.

Belteshazzar

< Mutiny >

Ursin

98. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 02:04:49 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
(To those who don't know, what I'm referring to is the practice of a holy paladin melee'ing the boss with SoW up. On fights where you can safely heal from melee this is the optimal practice and will result in you gaining more mana back from SoW than from both Illumination and Replenishment combined. It's something that's been going on for the entire expansion and is infinitely more swingy and overpowered than Spiritual Attunement ever was, but Blizzard just continues to ignore it.)

I'm hardly able to raid as much as I have in the past, so I actually wasn't aware of this. Is there a talent that increases a holy pally's returns from JoW? If not, then it's theoretically something all healers can benefit from, though it'd be a bit harder to swing for classes that can't just set a focus macro on the tank they're healing. Still, it's something to think about.

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

99. Re: The Opinion of Tree - Take it or Leaf It 10/22/2009 02:07:07 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I'm hardly able to raid as much as I have in the past, so I actually wasn't aware of this. Is there a talent that increases a holy pally's returns from JoW? If not, then it's theoretically something all healers can benefit from, though it'd be a bit harder to swing for classes that can't just set a focus macro on the tank they're healing. Still, it's something to think about.

Seal and Judgement of Wisdom have separate mana returns. Seal of Wisdom provides a huge amount of regen for the paladin using it (the mana gained is based off of max mana pool), Judgement of Wisdom provides a small amount of regen for anyone who hits the boss (the mana gained is based off of base mana pool).

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING