Re: having in-game qualification using patchwerks:

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Q u o t e:
That doesn't account for tanks, healer or raid damage multiplier DPS specs.

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I think they could handle making patchwerks for tank testing and healer testing. "Survive X seconds" while he crits you and an NPC heals you, for tanks. Heal a patchwerk tank while he gets beat on for X seconds for a healer. It would have to be tuned loosely to account for skill and the fact that most groups aren't in minimum gear. Qualifying based on single target damage for raids where you'd be expected to have X buffs wouldn't be too hard either.

It could never be perfect of course - but some basic qualification to keep 600 DPS and non-defense-capped tanks out would be an enormous improvement for everyone.

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Q u o t e:
As an aside I've banned the spamming of meters in raid and in guild.

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Alllways a good policy. If someone wants to know how their DPS (or Gear Score, etc.) they can install the addon or ask for a PM.

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Q u o t e:
Re: having in-game qualification using patchwerks:



I think they could handle making patchwerks for tank testing and healer testing. "Survive X seconds" while he crits you and an NPC heals you, for tanks. Heal a patchwerk tank while he gets beat on for X seconds for a healer. It would have to be tuned loosely to account for skill and the fact that most groups aren't in minimum gear. Qualifying based on single target damage for raids where you'd be expected to have X buffs wouldn't be too hard either.

It could never be perfect of course - but some basic qualification to keep 600 DPS and non-defense-capped tanks out would be an enormous improvement for everyone.




Alllways a good policy. If someone wants to know how their DPS (or Gear Score, etc.) they can install the addon or ask for a PM.

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Gear scores are perfectly acceptable way of spot checking for fails. Anything beyond that is just swapping one imperfect system for another. If you don't want to have to deal with pugs then just don't pug and stick with guild runs all the time.

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Q u o t e:


if they have to do that for every item that drops that is a lot of work, and these numbers would become ficticious numbers that the designers of the program gave them, instead of being hard-coded blizzard numbers.

it would create a boatload of extra work for them, while also decreasing the validity of their claims.




you can make anything work if you are determined enough, but not everyone will have that determination.

as it is they just have to pull the ilevel off the blizzard items, add it up, and give you a gearscore.

its so simple its silly and they can say "these are Blizzards numbers!!"

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Go to wow-heroes.com and look yourself up. Do you think those guys would have any problems parsing your armory information or having a 'bloated' database of items?

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Q u o t e:

Many players are perfectly reasonable. However we've all run into That Guy who takes any attempt at measuring his awesomeness in the game (gearscore, achievements, dps meters) way too seriously and looks for the same in others.

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WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT MY NERD POINTS GC?!? HMMMMM???

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Q u o t e:
It's one thing if your VoA tank is in all blues. It's another if you're asking for Ulduar gear for your Naxx run.

Many players are perfectly reasonable. However we've all run into That Guy who takes any attempt at measuring his awesomeness in the game (gearscore, achievements, dps meters) way too seriously and looks for the same in others.

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I generally throw out gearscore as a quick filter. Let's be realistic, a person with a 2000 wow-heroes gearscore (pretty much all blues) doesn't belong in a ToC10 pug. I had someone in mostly greens trying to get into an Onyxia 25 group two weeks ago.

Then again, I've also brought obscenely undergeared people, simply because I know they've cleared it on their main, and they are good players.

The problem isn't so much the various means of measuring people, but rather "That Guy" that you describe, and we've all seen trying to make a group while demanding absurd gear standards. Nothing is going to change or fix that guy, and it's generally best simply to not party with them.

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Q u o t e:

Many players are perfectly reasonable. However we've all run into That Guy who takes any attempt at measuring his awesomeness in the game (gearscore, achievements, dps meters) way too seriously and looks for the same in others.

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I honestly think you give them far too much credit. The number of times I've seen a LFM comment requiring a gear score of 4k+, and by the authors own admission, a score of 4398 would recommend normal ToC25 level if skilled, Ulduar25/ToC10 otherwise. And these morons want this sort of score for a heroic.

This is why I absolutely object to this addon.

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We actually talked today about adding an item level 300 shirt that did absolutely nothing but mess with mods that attempt to boil down players to gear scores. :)

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Then we will jsut assume everyone has this shirt and just minus out 300 points making people look more gimple.

gearscore related tears are so delicious

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On the other hand, the WoW community seems to have become so obsessed with efficiency and so adverse to wiping that there is, in my opinion, an unreasonable demand for player skill and gear requirements even for relatively easy content. It's one thing if your VoA tank is in all blues. It's another if you're asking for Ulduar gear for your Naxx run.

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I think it comes down to that we've all had runs that have been completely ruined by absolutely terrible players, so people use things like LINK GS AND ACHIEVEMENT to try and ensure that the player isn't that terrible and if he is terrible then maybe him being overgeared can carry his terribleness to some extent. If every level 80 was at least decent at the game I don't think you'd see such high standards for pugs, but unfortunately the level of skill required to succeed in the solo game (ie hit the level cap) is significantly lower than the level needed to succeed in any other part of the game.

This is kind of necessary as you have to design solo content to be doable by tank/heal specs as well as people who aren't capable of CCing mobs, healing themselves, etc., but it'd be nice if you made it easier/gave more incentives for people to learn the ropes of group content. For example, you could make a quest that required someone to be able to do X DPS on a target dummy, along with equivalent quests for tanks/healers to help them learn their jobs. Right now the only ways to learn are by trial and error (and if you're being carried by a competent group you might not even realize your errors and think that because the mob died before the healer ran oom doing nothing but slamming your face against the shadowbolt button is the proper way to do Warlock DPS) or looking things up in external sources like the forums. "Training" quests would be a good way to encourage people to improve their skills without punishing the other 4/9/24 guys if they're not good enough.

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Q u o t e:


WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT MY NERD POINTS GC?!? HMMMMM???

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HE'S SAYING THAT YOUR NERD POINTS ARE SMALL TIME

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Q u o t e:
gearscore related tears are so delicious

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i dont like gearscore simply because i feel like in a lot of cases i have to wear what i consider a worse item just because it has a higher item level so that the gear score people think im good.


i can pick out 2 or 3 dps pieces on my ret set i can get a higher item level item in the slot for, but i would end up with less offensive stats that matter to me. id actually be worse at dps but id have a higher item levels.

on my tank set its the same way. i can replace a few pieces to get higher item level pieces, but i end up with lower stamina and defensive stats overall, for an increase in something like expertise or hit rating, when im already at a good place on them.



gear score being common place is forcing people to wear sub-optimal gear to qualify for the mods rating system.


people in general are too stupid to tell the difference and will just automatically go with the high gear score person and justify with some nonsense like "he must be more experienced to have the better ilevel gear"

when in reality, one person is just wearing whatever gets him a higher ilevel, while the other actually is concerned with maximizing their needed stats.

chances are in a 1vs1 competition, the gear score person would lose.

I keep meaning to grab my 8/8 Lawbringer, original Quel'Serrar and Drillboarer Disk from the bank to wear around Dalaran and when trying to find a group.

Fortunately I don't have to PuG much as there are plenty of people in guild that are keen to do stuff.

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Q u o t e:
It's one thing if your VoA tank is in all blues. It's another if you're asking for Ulduar gear for your Naxx run.

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GC, I know and agree with where you're going with that... but I'm not sure which one of those is supposed to be the silly statement.

I'm pretty sure Koralon would just squish a tank in blues.

Why are people so wipe averse? I've been in pugs that fell apart after two attempts, even when the second attempt was much better than the first... I've never thought much of the 'casuals want free epics' QQing, but giving up on an iLevel 245 raid boss after 10 or 15 minutes doesn't help dispel the myth.

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Q u o t e:
"Training" quests would be a good way to encourage people to improve their skills without punishing the other 4/9/24 guys if they're not good enough.

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I got a quest for you it's called "Survive the Room of Fire" You walk into a room that set alight fires and sometimes they're under you and sometimes they're next to you. You have to kill x number of critters without setting yourself on fire! If you stand in the fire for more than a second you fail.

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Q u o t e:
. On the other hand, the WoW community seems to have become so obsessed with efficiency and so adverse to wiping that there is, in my opinion, an unreasonable demand for player skill and gear requirements even for relatively easy content.

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Simple fix for people being adverse to wiping. Remove the "adverseness" and give some sort of positive side effect to wiping. :D

You could go crazy and just totally cave in to the casuals and after say 10 wipes, you get a moral victory, 1 piece of loot and and achievement that says "Nice try, tiger. We'll get 'em next time"

Or you could give people a stacking buff each time they die to a boss and re-enter same instance of say +10% to all stats. Then you know each time you wipe, you'll come back faster, stronger, better. Eventually you'll almost HAVE to win.

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Q u o t e:
HE'S SAYING THAT YOUR NERD POINTS ARE SMALL TIME

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But... my ego... SHATTERED!!!

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Q u o t e:

Or you could give people a stacking buff each time they die to a boss and re-enter same instance of say +10% to all stats. Then you know each time you wipe, you'll come back faster, stronger, better. Eventually you'll almost HAVE to win.

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You'd have to give obscene bonuses for not wiping otherwise people will just say "ok, we're wiping 10 times then blitzing it, go". It would remove all skill from defeating an encounter.