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Q u o t e:







This is the last warning that we're going to lock this thread if it continues to get filled with QQ.

P.S. Perma-ban for Mr. shoot those devs. Classy.

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I guess you want structured feedback of new SS, it seems that you have received it from all ends, where 90 % of players saying it is a bad idea, and it is going to impact DK's PVP since the only valuable tree is UH while. Maybe you are buffing PVE (I didn't know UH needed a buff in PVE) but it will hurt PVP the most, where the class struggles as is right now. But it looks like even after all structured feedback and QQ you still going ahead with this new SS. So what do expect then praises ?

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Q u o t e:


I guess you want structured feedback of new SS, it seems that you have received it from all ends, where 90 % of players saying it is a bad idea, and it is going to impact DK's PVP since the only valuable tree is UH while. Maybe you are buffing PVE (I didn't know UH needed a buff in PVE) but it will hurt PVP the most, where the class struggles as is right now. But it looks like even after all structured feedback and QQ you still going ahead with this new SS. So what do expect then praises ?

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This post is lol and QQ. Let's make up numbers about who does and doesn't like the new SS more. I personally love the change.

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Q u o t e:


This post is lol and QQ. Let's make up numbers about who does and doesn't like the new SS more. I personally love the change.

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Yes, the post was qq and lol. I don't think he's making too much up though. If you read the thread this is a buff to pve and a nerf to pvp, the numbers are there to support it. Glad you like the pve change as again, it's definitely a pve buff. If you like the pvp change than you are admitting that you like doing less damage in pvp and like being more reliant on diseases.

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Q u o t e:


This post is lol and QQ. Let's make up numbers about who does and doesn't like the new SS more. I personally love the change.

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Please browse through DK forums, arenajunkies and ptr and see for your self how many people like it and how many didn't. It seems that most of nerfs and buffs are made around PVP. This is not an exception. Dks' already topping damage charts in most of the places they definitely don't need another buff in PVE.

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Q u o t e:


Please browse through DK forums, arenajunkies and ptr and see for your self how many people like it and how many didn't. It seems that most of nerfs and buffs are made around PVP. This is not an exception. Dks' already topping damage charts in most of the places they definitely don't need another buff in PVE.

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Unholy AOE is currently being adjusted with the 4 piece T9 being nerfed and the new target cap on Death and Decay. If you exclude the faction champs fight (Our disaeses don't count as AOE and as such we have a gimicky advantage over other DPS roles) in ToC DK's shouldn't be that far off from the pack after this next patch.

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Q u o t e:


To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

Armor pen as a stat on gear is going away. The concept of reducing armor (through say Battle Stance or Sunder Armor) is not going away. It's entirely possible a spec or two might improve their armor pen through the Mastery feature. Even if it was going away, magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks. There would be no reason to have physical attacks.

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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Looking forward to Cataclysm I wonder what sort of drastic changes the unholy tree will be going through as the tree is already bloated with so many +spellpower talents if Armor penetration talents are now going to be needed to help scourge strike scale.

Reports from the PTR indicate a large range of damage resulting from the current Scourge Strike double crit mechanic. Given the difficulty of keeping diseases on long enough to use a finisher or two, is it the intention of this change to make us even more dependent on diseases in a PVP setting? Other from the obvious use of allowing ArP scaling for Unholy in PVE, this change would seem to make disease removal even more powerful with the increased disease damage modifiers.

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Q u o t e:


I guess you want structured feedback of new SS, it seems that you have received it from all ends, where 90 % of players saying it is a bad idea, and it is going to impact DK's PVP since the only valuable tree is UH while. Maybe you are buffing PVE (I didn't know UH needed a buff in PVE) but it will hurt PVP the most, where the class struggles as is right now. But it looks like even after all structured feedback and QQ you still going ahead with this new SS. So what do expect then praises ?

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Read all the posts, you are a QQer. New SS is an upgrade, SS not being screwed by Shadow Resists is a nice PvP buff. The Shadow portion can't be mitigated after the Armor decrease and is increased via talents and debuffs increasing spell/shadow dmg.

Although I believe the SS Glyph should be folded into the skill which would make SS more then the a flashy Obliterate.

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Q u o t e:

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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It's definitely a tricky issue, but I still vote the second option. Have it ignore armor and balance it (and Unholy in general) around that. I simply feel it is a better niche and flavor for the spec.

I still think SS needs a (slight!) buff though, if only to fix Unholy's rotation. I understand the restrictions won't allow a straight damage upgrade, but could you possibly shift damage away from something else to make it possible?

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Q u o t e:


To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

Armor pen as a stat on gear is going away. The concept of reducing armor (through say Battle Stance or Sunder Armor) is not going away. It's entirely possible a spec or two might improve their armor pen through the Mastery feature. Even if it was going away, magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks. There would be no reason to have physical attacks.

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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The damage SS does at the moment is not even close to proportional to the amount of set up and stars aligning that it requires to land it with 3 diseases up.

At this point our only role in pvp is to strangulate for a bladestorming warrior.

We dont need 3 good pve dps specs and 0 good pvp specs.

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Q u o t e:


To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

Armor pen as a stat on gear is going away. The concept of reducing armor (through say Battle Stance or Sunder Armor) is not going away. It's entirely possible a spec or two might improve their armor pen through the Mastery feature. Even if it was going away, magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks. There would be no reason to have physical attacks.

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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How do you explain envenom? I ate a 8k Envenom the other day, and been regularly seeing 7k+ criticals, and there have been multiple post on this forum about how hard it is hitting for, and the fact that it ignores armor.

Is this is situation of it's a ability that needs to be nerfed or is this a situation of magical attacks hitting for as much or more then physical attacks are fine for some melee classes and not for others.

Also I don't understand the logic. Currently Mortal Strike and Death Strike which are both physical attacks and both require ZERO set up hit for more on Plate Targets and ridiculous amounts on cloth targets then Scourge Strike.

By your logic Scourge Strike in it's current live state should be hitting plate targets for more then Mortal Strike and Death Strike do, and the same on cloth targets. However physical attacks have the advantage in both cases which is where your Magic vs. Physical argument collaspes.

Another point I think would be good to clarify is what gear levels are you talking about.

Yes DKs in hateful with Titan Steel Destroyer are going to be BG heroes and hit for more with Scourge Strike then Physical classes do. However this all changes once ArP stacking and things like Grim Toll come into play.

Top end Unholy DKs are definately NOT hitting for as much on plate as Warriors do with MS or doing as much damage.

I pvp as Blood which is a terribad spec but I enjoy it alot, and my damage on cloth is ridiculous, and my damage on plate is still better then Unholy's and I have less then 20% armor pen, and stack strength.

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Q u o t e:
To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

Armor pen as a stat on gear is going away. The concept of reducing armor (through say Battle Stance or Sunder Armor) is not going away. It's entirely possible a spec or two might improve their armor pen through the Mastery feature. Even if it was going away, magical attacks still can't hit as hard as physical attacks. There would be no reason to have physical attacks.

At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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Fundamentally Ghostcrawler, the notion that by buffing the damage of a non-physical(non-mitigated) strike you instill the capacity for a strike to become "overpowered" seems flawed in the current state of the game.

As the orignal poster above me has noted, scourge strike's damage pales in comparision to multiple non-physical abilities, namely:

Envenom
Judgments (Pseudo-melee)

It also tends to hit slightly less than certain physical abilities which include:
Mortal Strike
Eviscerate

While I understand the intent is to Buff the PVE Damage Capacity of Scourge Strike by making talents like reaping attractive through this change, the change seems to have done the following.

Decreased Death Knight PVP capacity (I have a spreadsheet Of data values Input below)
Created too strong a PVE Strike

This in effect creates a deviation from what you (the developers) seem to desire.

I'll admit, I find deathknight damage at the moment TO BE FINE in pvp, a damage increase to scourge strike is NOT the concern for deathknights (I could allow you to go through the endless remonstrations of Disease Dispells but a simple jaunt to the Deathknight or Arenajunkies forums would remedy that)

And here are my aforementioned numbers

Physical SS Mitigation
0.000 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600
1188.0 1069.2 950.4 831.6 712.8 594.0 475.2
1518.0 1366.2 1214.4 1062.6 910.8 759.0 607.2
1848.0 1663.2 1478.4 1293.6 1108.8 924.0 739.2
2178.0 1960.2 1742.4 1524.6 1306.8 1089.0 871.2
2508.0 2257.2 2006.4 1755.6 1504.8 1254.0 1003.2
2838.0 2554.2 2270.4 1986.6 1702.8 1419.0 1135.2
3168.0 2851.2 2534.4 2217.6 1900.8 1584.0 1267.2

Crit SS Phys
2732.4 2459.2 2185.9 1912.7 1639.4 1366.2 1093.0
3491.4 3142.3 2793.1 2444.0 2094.8 1745.7 1396.6
4250.4 3825.4 3400.3 2975.3 2550.2 2125.2 1700.2
5009.4 4508.5 4007.5 3506.6 3005.6 2504.7 2003.8
5768.4 5191.6 4614.7 4037.9 3461.0 2884.2 2307.4
6527.4 5874.7 5221.9 4569.2 3916.4 3263.7 2611.0
7286.4 6557.8 5829.1 5100.5 4371.8 3643.2 2914.6

SS Phys (Resil)
1009.8 908.82 807.84 706.86 605.88 504.9 403.92
1290.3 1161.27 1032.24 903.21 774.18 645.15 516.12
1570.8 1413.72 1256.64 1099.56 942.48 785.4 628.32
1851.3 1666.17 1481.04 1295.91 1110.78 925.65 740.52
2131.8 1918.62 1705.44 1492.26 1279.08 1065.9 852.72
2412.3 2171.07 1929.84 1688.61 1447.38 1206.15 964.92
2692.8 2423.52 2154.24 1884.96 1615.68 1346.4 1077.12

SS Crit Phys(Resil)
1858.032 1672.2288 1486.4256 1300.6224 1114.8192 929.016 743.2128
2374.152 2136.7368 1899.3216 1661.9064 1424.4912 1187.076 949.6608
2890.272 2601.2448 2312.2176 2023.1904 1734.1632 1445.136 1156.1088
3406.392 3065.7528 2725.1136 2384.4744 2043.8352 1703.196 1362.5568
3922.512 3530.2608 3138.0096 2745.7584 2353.5072 1961.256 1569.0048
4438.632 3994.7688 3550.9056 3107.0424 2663.1792 2219.316 1775.4528
4954.752 4459.2768 3963.8016 3468.3264 2972.8512 2477.376 1981.9008

SS Shadow Damage (No Res)
1107.513 996.7617 886.0104 775.2591 664.5078 553.7565 443.0052
1415.1555 1273.63995 1132.1244 990.60885 849.0933 707.57775 566.0622
1722.798 1550.5182 1378.2384 1205.9586 1033.6788 861.399 689.1192
2030.4405 1827.39645 1624.3524 1421.30835 1218.2643 1015.22025 812.1762
2338.083 2104.2747 1870.4664 1636.6581 1402.8498 1169.0415 935.2332
2645.7255 2381.15295 2116.5804 1852.00785 1587.4353 1322.86275 1058.2902
2953.368 2658.0312 2362.6944 2067.3576 1772.0208 1476.684 1181.3472

SS Shadow Damage No Res Crit
2547.2799 2292.55191 2037.82392 1783.09593 1528.36794 1273.63995 1018.91196
3254.85765 2929.371885 2603.88612 2278.400355 1952.91459 1627.428825 1301.94306
3962.4354 3566.19186 3169.94832 2773.70478 2377.46124 1981.2177 1584.97416
4670.01315 4203.011835 3736.01052 3269.009205 2802.00789 2335.006575 1868.00526
5377.5909 4839.83181 4302.07272 3764.31363 3226.55454 2688.79545 2151.03636
6085.16865 5476.651785 4868.13492 4259.618055 3651.10119 3042.584325 2434.06746
6792.7464 6113.47176 5434.19712 4754.92248 4075.64784 3396.3732 2717.09856

SS Crit Resil
1532.8764 1379.58876 1226.30112 1073.01348 919.72584 766.4382 613.15056
1958.6754 1762.80786 1566.94032 1371.07278 1175.20524 979.3377 783.47016
2384.4744 2146.02696 1907.57952 1669.13208 1430.68464 1192.2372 953.78976
2810.2734 2529.24606 2248.21872 1967.19138 1686.16404 1405.1367 1124.10936
3236.0724 2912.46516 2588.85792 2265.25068 1941.64344 1618.0362 1294.42896
3661.8714 3295.68426 2929.49712 2563.30998 2197.12284 1830.9357 1464.74856
4087.6704 3678.90336 3270.13632 2861.36928 2452.60224 2043.8352 1635.06816

SS Double Crit Resil
2820.492576 2538.443318 2256.394061 1974.344803 1692.295546 1410.246288 1128.19703
3603.962736 3243.566462 2883.170189 2522.773915 2162.377642 1801.981368 1441.585094
4387.432896 3948.689606 3509.946317 3071.203027 2632.459738 2193.716448 1754.973158
5170.903056 4653.81275 4136.722445 3619.632139 3102.541834 2585.451528 2068.361222
5954.373216 5358.935894 4763.498573 4168.061251 3572.62393 2977.186608 2381.749286
6737.843376 6064.059038 5390.274701 4716.490363 4042.706026 3368.921688 2695.13735
7521.313536 6769.182182 6017.050829 5264.919475 4512.788122 3760.656768 3008.525414



The formatting is a bit off since for some reason I can't format the Excel spreadsheets,

The columns are as follows

Mitigation coefficients
0.000 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600

The weapon damage Coeffecients I used were:
1000.0
1500.0
2000.0
2500.0
3000.0
3500.0
4000.0

What I was able to extrapolate was the following:

Scourge Strike will be Absolutely Amazing for PVE (Perhaps too amazing)
Scourge Strike will not be able to stand on its own in PVP compared to the damage other classes do with PURE physical or Magic Damage Melee Abilities

Fixes I suggest:

Alter the Glyph of scourge strike to make the spell a PURE shadow damage attack, this would differentiate the spell from the glyph and give pvp Deathknights the capacity to keep their current damage the same (Nobody uses that glyph anyway so this would make it useful)

It would be nice to make the glyph of chains of Ice baseline for COI as well but I think I'll leave that out of the discussion for now =P

EDIT: I just read this: We're not going to let a strike that does magical damage do more damage than a physical strike.

Then why isnt envenom being reworked against evisc..............................

Its a game of contradictions isnt it =D

GC please dont ignore this post like is some sort of massive qqing, these are real issues many of your costumers are facing and the numbers support the fact that we are struggling in PVP which is what i like to do in this game and thats why i pay 15$ every month we would like u to be more present in this thread.

Also envenom and judgements hit like a truck on pretty much everything why SS cant hit for as much as them?But ill just leave the numbers to others, looks like they are doing a good job at it,keep it up.

I haven't been on the test server yet, and I didn't notice in this thread if it was mentioned, but is the sigil of awareness +damage to SS getting changed in the patch or no?

I dont think they wil change the sigil...lets hope they dont nerf it lol.

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Q u o t e:

Alter the Glyph of scourge strike to make the spell a PURE shadow damage attack, this would differentiate the spell from the glyph and give pvp Deathknights the capacity to keep their current damage the same (Nobody uses that glyph anyway so this would make it useful.

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This isn't a bad idea, although implementation would probably be extremely convoluted. Even if it's not this idea exactly, I think the Glyph of Scourge Strike (which is currently unattractive in both PvE and PvP) would be a good place to start in terms of improving the strike's viability in PvP without impacting balance too much on the PvE side of things.

Would a Glyph of Scourge Strike with the old Glyph of Icy Touch utility (+10 RP per strike) be over the top in PvE? Because it would go a long way in making Scourge Strike an attractive option in PvP, even without full diseases on the target.

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Q u o t e:
To reiterate one more time....

We're not going to let an attack that ignores armor do the same damage as an attack that is reduced by armor. The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not. The answer I keep reading is "Just buff Scourge Strike." No. It can't do more base damage as long as it bypasses armor.

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First of all, there's a problem when discussing balance of the new SS, and unfortunately it's something you haven't directly addressed in this thread (aside from entertaining a different SS concept).

If you notice, there's largely two camps of people on this thread. One camp that's entirely PvE and cares nothing about PvP declare the change as "great! this is just what we need!" and another that's entirely PvP and cares ittle for PvE, who hate the change.

You simply cannot ignore one camp or another, which is what it feels like you're doing with PvP. There seems to be only a cursory consideration for the PvP implications.

The problem is that when armor gets reduced, a physical attack hits for more while a magical attack does not.

And the even bigger problem is that armor doesn't gets reduced in PvP, unless you happen to be in a very specific comp. Hence, your premise is invalid for PvP, which then borks SS for PvP. And since diseases constantly get cleansed in PvP, it makes SS even worse since it only does 50% phys up front, plus a bigger damage bonus from diseases. I'm not understanding why you're okay to let Unholy PvP rot at expense of a PvE spec that's more a luxury than a necessity. The reason why I say it's a luxury is that we already have viable PvE specs with Blood and maybe even Frost. To be somewhat callous, we don't need a viable Unholy PvE spec (though it'd be nice). Do I want a viable Unholy SS PvE spec? Sure. But not at the expense of PvP, especially when people can always respec to Blood. Considering how many times I've had to respec/re-glyph and shift rotations for Unholy PvE, switching to Blood wasn't much of a change in commitment at all, since Unholy has been so volatile with changes.

What's more, the change seems like a net-zero gain while making SS more confusing at the same time. I mean, how intuitive is it that SS double dips in certain areas (crit, physical mitigation), but not in others (resilience, dodge/resistance)? So you'll make SS desirable for Unholy PvE again... but at the same time, Unholy PvP will likely have to use Oblit to have more up-front damage. That seems to defeat the purpose of the change, which was to make SS viable overall. Killing SS for PvP for sake of PvE isn't accomplishing anything, it's merely shifting the problem from one place to another.

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Q u o t e:
At a very high level there are two options: Scourge Strike hits at X damage but respects armor, or Scourge Strike hits at X*0.5 and ignores armor. Talents etc. can modify this, but they all have their individual budgets too.

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But thats not what we have with the current SS. With the current SS its more like: non-crit SS hits for X, and double crit SS hits for X*6 (6 is obviously an exaggeration, but the point remains: double crit SS hits for huge damage).

We need some normalization on SS.

Secondly, absolutely NO consideration is being given to the fact that DKs will have to stack Str, ArP, and Spell Pen in pvp gear all because of this SS change. Requiring 3 different kinds of gems to be pvp viable seems like a bit much...