World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information)

Krayten

< Scalebane >

Eredar

240. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 12:15:24 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Disease protection is hard because if it works against the cleansing totem, it makes it overpowered against manual cleansing. If it doesn't work against the cleansing totem, then DK's are too weak against any team with a Shaman.

Cleansing totem doesn't need anymore nerfs, cause us PvE'ers still want it for raiding and what not.

Sticky problem.

It isn't.

If Crypt Fever did damage to the target it was on when it got dispelled, then there wouldn't be this "OP against manual cleansers or auto dispellers"

Q u o t e:
Quick someone post how Krayten is wrong but don't provide any evidence to your claim and throw in a few red herrings along the way.

Meithos

< Cold Fusion >

Hellscream

241. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 12:36:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
PvP questions to community
1. From what I read re-geming current +Str with +ArP will be needed or we won't pressure mail or plate enough.
2. Is shadow portion of SS still affected by resists? Does "can only be increased" statement apply to resilience and such or does it apply to resists as well?

it can still be resisted, you can see for yourself on the epic training dummy, almost every SS will get some partial resist on the shadow dmg.

Krayten

< Scalebane >

Eredar

242. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 12:40:06 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

it can still be resisted, you can see for yourself on the epic training dummy, almost every SS will get some partial resist on the shadow dmg.

The shadow part shouldn't be resistible if it is also being reduced by armor (indirectly from the physical part)

Q u o t e:
Quick someone post how Krayten is wrong but don't provide any evidence to your claim and throw in a few red herrings along the way.

Khazeroth

< We Gem Skill >

Sisters of Elune

243. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 12:40:52 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
The shadow part shouldn't be resistible if it is also being reduced by armor (indirectly from the physical part)

Double penalties. Good times.

et suppositio nil ponit in esse

Meithos

< Cold Fusion >

Hellscream

244. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 12:56:33 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Double penalties. Good times.

it might be acceptable to have resistences effect it, if they also make it based off of melee crit rate like the old SS, and allow vicious strikes, subversion and outbreak to effect the shadow portion directly as well since it still counts as Scourge Strike, then it would be double dipping those tallents, but GC said that double dipping on the effects wich buff its dmg is kind of the intent.

Meithos

< Cold Fusion >

Hellscream

245. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:06:33 PM PDT

also make using disease apply a physical buff to the dk, and have those buffs scale strike dmg instead of the disease debuffs.

that way players can still clense disease to midigate the Dot dmg and DKs can be playable against teams with a dispell.

Slant

< Age of Redemption >

Drenden

246. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:07:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Double penalties. Good times.

Guys, please read the blue posts before commenting. Heck, GC even came on here and said the same thing.

The shadow portion currently double-dips on both bonuses (ebon plague, blood pres, etc) and mitigation (resists, resilience, etc). The shadow portion is not supposed to be reduced in any way, is supposed to crit at 200%, and is not in its final form on the PTR. The shadow portion is supposed to double-dip on bonuses.

GC posted about it in this very same thread you're reading now.

[ Post edited by Slant ]

WOTLK Shaman FAQ: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79203452

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

247. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:08:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
You stated during blizzcon that armor penetration as a stat would be removed from the game in Cata.
Yet you are to trying to balance Scourge Strike around armor penetration. Is it me or is others confused by this new direction? After armor penetration is out the door what will that do to Scourge Strike in the long run?

This question has popped up several times, so let me answer it in the hopes it gets read.

We are only removing armor pen rating in Cataclysm. We aren't removing the concept of reducing armor, most significantly Sunder and Expose Armor, but also things like Battle Stance, perhaps talents, etc.. Part of the problem we are trying to solve is that in 3.2 Scourge Strike loses a lot of its damage (or more correctly, strikes like Obliterate do more damage) against targets whose armor has been bypassed. However, it's not fair to just buff Scourge Strike because then it is going to hit for way too hard against fully armored targets. Making part of the damage physical lets us justify bringing the total damage up.

Another way to answer the question however is that armor pen stat is going away in 4.0, but it's here now and we still have to balance around it.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Meithos

< Cold Fusion >

Hellscream

248. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:11:16 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

This question has popped up several times, so let me answer it in the hopes it gets read.

We are only removing armor pen rating in Cataclysm. We aren't removing the concept of reducing armor, most significantly Sunder and Expose Armor, but also things like Battle Stance, perhaps talents, etc.. Part of the problem we are trying to solve is that in 3.2 Scourge Strike loses a lot of its damage (or more correctly, strikes like Obliterate do more damage) against targets whose armor has been bypassed. However, it's not fair to just buff Scourge Strike because then it is going to hit for way too hard against fully armored targets. Making part of the damage physical lets us justify bringing the total damage up.

Another way to answer the question however is that armor pen stat is going away in 4.0, but it's here now and we still have to balance around it.

will spell Pen still be here in 4.0? because unholy DKs pretty much need it in pvp.

and any chance we could be gettng some sort of additional disease protection/dispell resistence, or a consequence system in 3.3?

[ Post edited by Meithos ]

Zukiral

< YOU ARE NOT PREPARED >

Emerald Dream

249. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:17:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

will spell Pen still be here in 4.0? because unholy DKs pretty much need it in pvp.

and any chance we could be gettng some sort of additional disease protection/dispell resistence, or a consequence system in 3.3?

This? GC? Anything response would be huge here.

Shokz

< Versus >

Alterac Mountains

250. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:22:30 PM PDT

Thanks for the reply GC.

Just curious if you could answer these 2 questions.....

1 - Is anything going to be done to improve the dispel situation of DKs in pvp?

2 - Are the devs considering adding a Sunder style debuff to say Blood Strike to help the new SS not be useless vs high armored targets?

Thanks

Primiez

< Pale Fire >

Aerie Peak

251. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:29:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

This question has popped up several times, so let me answer it in the hopes it gets read.

We are only removing armor pen rating in Cataclysm. We aren't removing the concept of reducing armor, most significantly Sunder and Expose Armor, but also things like Battle Stance, perhaps talents, etc.. Part of the problem we are trying to solve is that in 3.2 Scourge Strike loses a lot of its damage (or more correctly, strikes like Obliterate do more damage) against targets whose armor has been bypassed. However, it's not fair to just buff Scourge Strike because then it is going to hit for way too hard against fully armored targets. Making part of the damage physical lets us justify bringing the total damage up.

Another way to answer the question however is that armor pen stat is going away in 4.0, but it's here now and we still have to balance around it.

GC I swear i will never whine or diss you again (don't hold me to that =p) if you can give us your opinion on the state of disease dispels against DKs in pvp.

Do you guys plan to do anything about?

You think it's working fine?

Do you think it's to powerful against us?

I think question number1 is the thing on everyone's mind the most. I also think this is a question you should ask because this new strike hurts us even more when diseases are dispelled and our representation is already suffering greatly because of this mechanic.

[ Post edited by Primiez ]

Zeroknight

Stormreaver

252. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:33:33 PM PDT

Dks damage is counterable. I would say that if dks damage wasnt so good ppl wouldnt bother dispelling diseases, but dispelling is so dang easy, they'd be a fool not to. I dont think the problem is our diseases are too easy to dispel. I think the problem is that dispelling is just too easy.

We have horrible heals that we can only cast on ourselves that are nearly worthless in a group setting. These also are countered by dispeling. Our intire class is countered by dispeling. We're like frost mages only much much easier to counter. Yes dks are good vs crappy teams. Get to high ratings and the only presense you get to use is unholy to get 1 ss off b4 ur diseases are dispelled. In 5's, its just a headache. its not fun at all.

my favorite idea is just to leave the debuff on the target and dispeling takes off the dots.

Kalibur

< Awakened >

Andorhal

253. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:36:37 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Dks damage is counterable. I would say that if dks damage wasnt so good ppl wouldnt bother dispelling diseases, but dispelling is so dang easy, they'd be a fool not to. I dont think the problem is our diseases are too easy to dispel. I think the problem is that dispelling is just too easy.

We have horrible heals that we can only cast on ourselves that are nearly worthless in a group setting. These also are countered by dispeling. Our intire class is countered by dispeling. We're like frost mages only much much easier to counter. Yes dks are good vs crappy teams. Get to high ratings and the only presense you get to use is unholy to get 1 ss off b4 ur diseases are dispelled. In 5's, its just a headache. its not fun at all.

my favorite idea is just to leave the debuff on the target and dispeling takes off the dots.

I wouldn't dare say we have horrible heals. Other DPS classes would kill to have some of our self healing abilities. The dispel problem is huge I agree, but saying our heals are bad is just nonsense.

My better smells like french toast.

Toxicat

< Echelon >

Silvermoon

254. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:38:16 PM PDT

Return of runic power, damage taken, or some kind of reduced healing penalty attached to the removal of our diseases would make cleansing a decision. Currently it is a no-brainer: mash the cleanse/abolish button.

We're in a predicament not unlike the druid getting all his hots removed with SS at the moment. How is this being addressed?

Krayten

< Scalebane >

Eredar

255. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:45:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Return of runic power, attached to the removal of our diseases

Oh I like that idea.

You gain 10 runic power when one of your diseases is dispelled.

Q u o t e:
Quick someone post how Krayten is wrong but don't provide any evidence to your claim and throw in a few red herrings along the way.

Loteklol

< Alpha >

Greymane

256. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:45:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

This question has popped up several times, so let me answer it in the hopes it gets read.

We are only removing armor pen rating in Cataclysm. We aren't removing the concept of reducing armor, most significantly Sunder and Expose Armor, but also things like Battle Stance, perhaps talents, etc.. Part of the problem we are trying to solve is that in 3.2 Scourge Strike loses a lot of its damage (or more correctly, strikes like Obliterate do more damage) against targets whose armor has been bypassed. However, it's not fair to just buff Scourge Strike because then it is going to hit for way too hard against fully armored targets. Making part of the damage physical lets us justify bringing the total damage up.

Another way to answer the question however is that armor pen stat is going away in 4.0, but it's here now and we still have to balance around it.

It would be helpful to know if you plan to continue to launch the new X.0 patch prior to an xpac launch. If so, how will ArP on gear be dealt with come that day? Or are you just using 4.0 as shorthand for Cataclysm launch day?

Primiez

< Pale Fire >

Aerie Peak

257. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:47:02 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I wouldn't dare say we have horrible heals. Other DPS classes would kill to have some of our self healing abilities. The dispel problem is huge I agree, but saying our heals are bad is just nonsense.

Frost Heals are bad and not ever worth using in a pvp setting. The cost for the horribad return isn't worth it.

Unholy's healing ability is decent but it requires 3 diseases which almost never happens in pvp especially in arena.

Blood has the best heals by far. Breaking over 5k on DS in top end pvp gear and 6k+ on Rune Tap and that's unglyphed and not even factoring in vampiric Blood. The problem? Dispels.

You can almost never heal in arena as blood because dispels destroys your ability to do so. The only real benefit for Blood to put up diseases in arena is to benefit from it's defining spec feature but can't because of dispels. Which is why most Blood DKs just run diseaseless.

Gums

< Keepers of the Keg >

Tichondrius

258. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:47:03 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Another way to answer the question however is that armor pen stat is going away in 4.0, but it's here now and we still have to balance around it.

GC, your last statement is interesting....

The same thing can be said for disease cleanse spam. The cleanse system, from what we have heard, is getting a fix in 4.0, but currently it is devastating to DKs in its current form. Is there anything you and the devs are looking at as a temporary fix? Or is this an issue that we are going to have to wait on till 4.0?

Edit: GC, all of us in the DK community appreciate your feedback and communication with us through this SS process, it has been helpful. Now if only we can talk about disease cleanse spam.... :)

[ Post edited by Gums ]

Tryptomine

< Combat Systems >

Blackwing Lair

259. Re: Scourge Strike On The PTR ( Information) 10/15/2009 01:48:19 PM PDT

GC obviously has read our posts on disease management, and no doubt has thoughts on them. However, considering he has deliberately danced around the subject so far, it seems quite obvious that he is currently in a position where he is unable to comment on the subject, likely due either to being currently undecided of what action to take, or incomplete plans for addressing the issue.

In other words, there appears to be little point in begging GC for comment on the issue right now and is probably best to just sit tight. Although discussion on the subject and suggestions for helping it are probably still useful.

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