---

Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

---

Thanks for the reply GC.

Any chance of bumping them all up to 60? I know that having long CD's means that on some pulls you have alot more flexibility/forgivness than on others which probalby makes it tough to have 60 min CD's.

But I doubt you would consider removing it altogether, so 60 min for everyone seems decent.

30 minutes seems fair with a talented 15 minute cd, making it equal with soulstone. I still disagree with all the QQ over a buff (regardless of how small), but there you go.

---

Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

---

That would be absolutely fantastic. Thank you for keeping us in the loop.

---

Q u o t e:


Your contrived "points" are hardly worth responding to in light of the fact that you have been unable to explain why Soulstone (Reincarnation, the flexible version) at 15 minutecooldown is not overpowered, but that Reincarnation at 50 minute cooldown is well balanced.

That's what this debate is about.


Your assumption of a 10 minute cooldown on Reincarnation makes your arguments as absurd as GC's original rationalization for reducing SS's cooldown to 15 minutes and Reincarnation's to 50 minutes lest it be overpowered.

---

The entire debate here has been, "Spell x has a low CD, so how come spell y can't have a low CD? I mean, they're the same!" And I pointed out how the spells are different:

---

Q u o t e:

Let me try to break down my argument. The novelty and potential opportunity cost (based on the fact that it could have been used on someone that is now otherwise dead throughout the encounter) of SS and Rebirth is incomparable to a 10 minute Reincarnation. The behavioral effects are different; the way they effect the mentality of any given raider is different; and Reincarnation is a nifty bonus for Shaman, compared to everyone else who has to rely on Rebirth and Soulstones.

No one is arguing about which is more powerful. Get that out of your head. A spell's CD doesn't have to be based on which is more powerful. There is a bigger picture to be looked at here, and you're completely refusing to see it. >.>

---

Plus, that whole Druids and Shaman are different classes thing. Shaman don't necessarily have to have a low CD self-rez to be a solid class overall, so comparing spells is a pointless exercise.

I also think that part of the reason we're not in agreement is that you interpreted GC's "low CD Reincarnation could result in bizarre behavior" statement as meaning that a Reincarnation under 50 minutes would necessarily be OP. It's hard to reconcile your argument with what he actually said, unless I'm missing something.

But the developers ended up (probably) lowering the CD, so all this pathetic QQ will probably stop. I'm done arguing with you guys.

---

Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

---

I'm assuming the nerf you're referring to is that if you did lower the CD, you would remove the increase in health and mana?

I can't say I'm a fan of that idea. The only reason I justify taking 2/2 right now is for the increased mana and health when I do use it. I rarely need to use Reincarnate more than once over a given clear, so the reduced time is of less value to me.

But I don't speak for everyone I guess. Just my personal experience speaking.

---

Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

---

I think you'd need to work something else into the talent to make it a more logical choice for resto shams, who are kind of strapped for talent points already.

However, making it 30 minutes base still raises the issue in this thread - how come other in-combat rezzes, such as soulstones and battle rez, which are much more flexible, have shorter cooldowns?

I hate to do the simple "let's throw up and compare abilities" argument, but it does seem like a massive discrepancy in this case. Even with a 30 minute base cooldown, a resto druid can battle rez three times, for every one time a shaman can ankh himself.

Shamans don't have the option to rez other valuable raid members, like the MT or the top healer, in a pinch. They don't have the option to grant their ressurection to another player, like a soulstone. So it seems that, if anything, ~they're~ the ones who should get the ten minutes, since reincarnation is almost always less useful.

Not trying to argue with you or stick it in your eye - just saying, it seems uneven.

---

Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

---

Hooray for critical thinking!

30 minutes for Reinc still seems high in respect to the buffs to the other abilities, but the talent spec might actually be worth moving into with the potential cooldown reduction to 15 minutes -- which would thus put the cooldown on par with Soulstone.

What Reincarnation loses in flexibility (self-only, unlike Soulstone), it somewhat makes up for in its idiot-proof status of being always active, unlike a Soulstone which must be physically applied (and therefore can at times, be forgotten). When specced-into, that difference makes the parity of cooldowns between the abilities seem rather well-balanced.

The only real question is whether non-"required" talents can be found to sacrifice for speccing into 15min Reincarnation cooldowns. If not, then there remains a something of balance problem, imo.



I agree that the "mulligans" are going to be a little too available with the proposed changes to Rebirth/SS/Reinc in 3.3, and the ramifications for raid-encounter balance (especially in hardmodes) are daunting, but that's another discussion entirely.

---

Q u o t e:


We really like the limited attempts mechanic though and might use it again in the future

---

Please, oh please do not attach actually useful loot to a perfection run in the future.

---

Q u o t e:
I agree that the "mulligans" are going to be a little too available with the proposed changes to Rebirth/SS/Reinc in 3.3, and the ramifications for raid-encounter balance (especially in hardmodes) are daunting, but that's another discussion entirely.

---

The way it is now, we wait for all rebirths to be up for every pull in TOGC (regardless of wipe), so the change won't really matter. All this means is a lot less idle time sitting there wanting to slam my head into my desk.

I'd like to see these talents removed, the base time of this changed to 45 min, and the glyph of reincarnation modified to not requrie reagen and reduce the CD by 15 min. They changed this because no on specs for this talent and they changed other class' skills. No one is still going to spec for this.

---

Q u o t e:
Soulstone can be placed on someone who isn't going to die, and BR can't be used if the Druid is dead, although we all know how chain BR works (aka one Druid rez another who rez another who rez another who rez a non Druid).

Personally, i think a more important point is, why is it still in tier two? Move it to tier one so Eles and Enhs can use it.

---

Reincarnation can be on someone who isn't going to die, either. What's your point? Soulstone is identical in function to Reincarnation, but it can be used on self as well as others.

As for the talent issue, if a Shaman cannot realisticly (ie. sacrifice a single "optional" talent) spec into the cooldown reduction for Reincarnation, then the ability at a 30minute cooldown is still drastically un(der)balanced when compared with 15 minute cooldown Soulstone.

---

Q u o t e:


The main consideration that drove this change was the limited attempts in ToC heroic. It's not fun to feel like you are supposed to sit around and let your long cooldowns come back up. We really like the limited attempts mechanic though and might use it again in the future, so we wanted you to feel like the battle rezes would be reasonably available. Yes if you wipe in 2 min you might not have it available again, but you probably shouldn't be battle rezzing that quickly into a fight anyway.

---

That makes perfect sense. thank you for the clarification.

A suggestion to limit abuse would be to put a system in place similar to heroism that puts a devuff on the person so they cannot be rezzed more than once per fight. Im not sure if thats doable (having a debuff that applies when you die and disappears when you resapawn when you enter the instance) but it WOULd limit the abuse of the lowered cooldowns somewhat.

I think the reason the Imp. Reincarnate talent is so unpopular isn't simply because it's pretty underwhelming currently, but also because it's philosophically unattractive at it's core. Instead of putting points into talents that actually, you know, increase the shaman's ability to heal or dps, you're asking them to put points into a talent with the assumption that they are going to be dying frequently. Nobody likes to think that way.

I don't know about anyone else, but when going into a fight - even a progression encounter - I make the assumption that I'm going to survive the whole time and my dps will be a more important factor than rezzing with more health and mana. Of course that's obviously not always the case, and that's why these abilities are so helpful, but putting talent points into it is a different matter - especially when it requires 7 points for either dps spec.

I agree that moving Imp. Reincarnate up to the first tier in the resto tree would go a long way towards making the talent more attractive to Ele and Enhance shamans. It would be nice to see it have some sort of secondary effect to seal the deal, but I'm not really sure what would be appropriate.

I really don't understand why they haven't pushed more of these long cooldown abilities into a once-per-fight category instead. You can do it with potions - why not do it with these abilities too? Battle res once per combat. Divine Hymn once per combat. Soulstone, once per combat. Bloodlust / heroism once per combat. You have the tech - you use it for potion cooldowns. Why not just extend it to all the abilities you simply want us to use only once per combat? Then you need not worry about fight lengths, and no one needs to stand around for excessive time periods to wait for all the cooldowns to come around.

I'd suppose there's probably some conflict with deaths that you'd need to work with, since the pot timer resets on death OR end of combat.

Self-rez is something I hesitate to use even when it can be useful. I come back to life with no buffs, no health, and no mana. If I cast riptide right away I might not die to the next gust of wind that comes along. If I cast water shield and mana tide, eat a crazy alchemy pot, and (ideally) receive an innervate, I'll be able to resume healing usefully.

This is a lot of ifs. Often what ends up happening is I just get the privilege of a higher repair bill than everyone else. I know it's only 9g per death, and a typical daily quest yields 13g, but there's a real and literal cost to taking a rez in combat.

Rez (whether druid, shaman, or warlock) in combat is something that gets used on fights that are harder, with a higher chance of dying anyway. Starting out with a low resource pool is needed to prevent it from being overpowered. I liked the old glyph of ankh though, with its temporary survivability buff.

---

Q u o t e:

Soulstone can be placed on someone who isn't going to die, and BR can't be used if the Druid is dead, although we all know how chain BR works (aka one Druid rez another who rez another who rez another who rez a non Druid).

---

Yeah, that's what I meant - the other in-combat rezzes are ~much~ more flexible. None of them are immune to situations where they have no use, but a b-rez or a soulstone can be used to protect against deaths much more effectively than an ankh.

IE, soul-stoning a druid. Now no matter who dies, they'll be able to be rezzed.

---

Q u o t e:
Self-rez is something I hesitate to use even when it can be useful. I come back to life with no buffs, no health, and no mana. If I cast riptide right away I might not die to the next gust of wind that comes along. If I cast water shield and mana tide, eat a crazy alchemy pot, and (ideally) receive an innervate, I'll be able to resume healing usefully.

This is a lot of ifs. Often what ends up happening is I just get the privilege of a higher repair bill than everyone else. I know it's only 9g per death, and a typical daily quest yields 13g, but there's a real and literal cost to taking a rez in combat.

Rez (whether druid, shaman, or warlock) in combat is something that gets used on fights that are harder, with a higher chance of dying anyway. Starting out with a low resource pool is needed to prevent it from being overpowered. I liked the old glyph of ankh though, with its temporary survivability buff.

---

I personally think it is more useful than your describing, but that is a matter of opinion and healing style more than fact. What rez does do is allow for mistakes on progression fights. If they lower the anh to 15 min talented, I will have hard time NOt taking it. Its too useful for progression. For farming HPs doesnt matter anyways.

In all likelyhood you would swap 2% crit(Thundering strikes) or 2% mana cost(Tidal focus) for the 2 points. Having a pop every pull (or 3 for eveyr 3 pulls) is worth 2% crit for me on fights where you are learning or close to downing the boss. Its the ultimate oh crap button.

Why not do something like this?

-Reincarnation cooldown lowered to 15 minutes, same as Soulstone. Talent no longer effects cooldown.
-If a Shaman uses a Soulstone, their Reincarnation is immediately put on cooldown.
-If Reincarnation is on cooldown, the Shaman can not receive a Soulstone buff. (Don't care how, make Reincarnation put a persistent debuff for the length of the cooldown maybe).


This should end the firestorm with both sides happy. Now we can only die and resurrect on the exact same schedule as every other class.
Thoughts?