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Q u o t e:
10 minutes would be silly. You would get two lives almost every attempt.

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Exactly. Its not like you will get a BRez every attempt

Or a SS every 1-2 attempts

oh wait....

Sarcasm aside,

The SS/BRez fixes were put in because guilds wanting to save attempts were waiting in between pulls. Bliz figured as long as it did not affect PVP whats the harm. Frankly I dont have a problem with that.

They can now build the assumpption of 1-2 rezes per fight into the fight, which means insta gibs are not unfair any more. I expect to see more of them in hard modes now.

The problem shamans have is that Reinc may APPEAR to be more useful, but in reality is exactly the same as putting a SS on yourself once an hour (or 30/50 min now).

I would be fine if they took all 3 abailities out of the game completely. Make death a real issue again.

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Q u o t e:
Shamans could just commit suicide every fight knowing that they could come back. Standing in the fire too long? No problem. Too far away from where you want to be? Just die. Out of mana? Just die. Yes you might lose dps or healing time, but we still think it would happen and we think it would look weird.

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Hey GC you should just stop posting like you said you would, unless this was posted before he gave it all up, anyways sorry to tell you this brah but since you have this talent called improved reincarnation some shams alrdy do spec for it and do kill themselves for the 40% mana back talented, myself included.


You lose all your buffs and its only good towards the end of a fight, even then its pretty situational but srsly you could do the same with with rebirths.

"OOM innervate me" "Its on CD!" "O well Brez me im goin in!"

no different.


Change ALL in battle rez mechanics to 1% hp and mp on return and then you can pretend like you are concerned about shamans exploiting it.

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Q u o t e:
The problem shamans have is that Reinc may APPEAR to be more useful, but in reality is exactly the same as putting a SS on yourself once an hour

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^^

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Q u o t e:


Wrong and irrelevant.

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Uh...great argument? Because it isn't the case that Reincarnation is a bonus in an environment where there are Rebirths and Soulstones? The fact is, the existence of a 10 minute CD Rebirth doesn't mean Reincarnation should have a lower CD. If anything, it somewhat negates the need for Reincarnation to have a lower CD.

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Q u o t e:
So my CD needs a longer CD than it could have because someone elses CD that is more powerful and shorter in CD duration can do the same effect to me that mine can but can also do the same effect that mine can only for me to anyone else in the raid???

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I never said that. I said that Reincarnation and Rebirth are in the hands of different classes, so it's fine that their CDs are different. And that a 10 minute CD Reincarnation has different gameplay implications than a 10 minute CD Rebirth.

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Q u o t e:
Rebirth is a second chance for anyone just like reincarn is a second chance only for the shaman, it makes no difference at all besides the fact that droods have options with who they rez.

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Wrong. People don't go into encounters expecting a second life. Rebirth is helpful for when someone makes a mistake, but how people die is random and unpredictable. No one dies assuming that there's still going to be a Rebirth available to them. That wouldn't be the same for Shaman, who would go into every encounter with 2 lives - period. The Shaman class would be the class that can die twice every encounter, and, like I said, in an environment where there are Rebirths and Soulstones.

Skimmed the rest of your trash, and frankly it's not worth responding to. >.>

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Q u o t e:


Read my posts to see why GC's logic isn't absurd. And I agree that the CD would be fine at around 30 minutes, but that doesn't mean 50 minutes makes it underpowered.

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It is absurd,.

I have read your posts, but your rationalizationshave done nothing to lessen the absurdity of GC's rationalization for the state of reincarnation in relation to buffs provided to the rez abilities as seen on the ptr.

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Q u o t e:

That wouldn't be the same for Shaman, who would go into every encounter with 2 lives - period. The Shaman class would be the class that can die twice every encounter, and, like I said, in an environment where there are Rebirths and Soulstones.

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so whats the difference between putting a Ss on a shaman every pull and a shaman getting to ankh every pull?

Or putting a SS on a druid every pull then having the druid be able to rez someone else as well as themself.

As I stated above, Im all for taking away all of these abilities. If you die on a pull, your dead. Period.

You guys do know that Shaman can be the target of a SS and a Brez, right? Reincarnation is on top of the existing things. It's something extra, nobody else can simply decide to pick themselves up after dying.

Frankly, the QQ over this is ridiculous.

Don't get my intent with this thread wrong. I do not feel a 10 min reincarnation is a good idea. However, I believe it should be lowered to 30 minutes, talented to 20 minutes. (not that a smart player would take the talents).



Also, please fix the problem with the orc racial Blood Fury not working on healing spells, only damage spells. As I said, the racial works with every spec of every class that an orc can possibly be, except Resto Shamans.

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Q u o t e:
If you die on a pull, you're dead. Period.

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Best idea yet.

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Q u o t e:
You guys do know that Shaman can be the target of a SS and a Brez, right? Reincarnation is on top of the existing things. It's something extra, nobody else can simply decide to pick themselves up after dying.

Frankly, the QQ over this is ridiculous.

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You guys do know that Druids can be the target of a SS, right? soulstone is on top of the existing things. It's something extra, anyone else with SS else can simply decide to pick themselves up after dying.

Same thing now isn't it.

Im not so much QQing over the Ankh limitation as the absurbity of Rebirth and SS. But as I said, the change was because guilds are waiting for the CD anyways. If the CD was an hour it might be different. But on progression fights wher eyou want to have max chance to succeed (for tributes, etc) guilds will do whatever it takes to maximize their chances.

Personally I think that Tanks will get the SS's, at leats on fights where they can taunt. Being able to pop very quickly (Rebirth is a little slower) will save pulls.

Assume a raid with 2 Druids, 2 shaman and 2 Locks. Which Cd will be used more. Which has more value. Which is least valuable.

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Q u o t e:


It is absurd,.

I have read your posts, but your rationalizationshave done nothing to lessen the absurdity of GC's rationalization for the state of reincarnation in relation to buffs provided to the rez abilities as seen on the ptr.

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Statements of approval or disapproval alone don't do much for the discussion.

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Q u o t e:



so whats the difference between putting a Ss on a shaman every pull and a shaman getting to ankh every pull?

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The difference is that the SS is being used on the Shaman instead of someone else, and that it's a novelty. It's not the same as having a built in second life on top of the potential to get Rebirths and Soulstones.

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Q u o t e:
You guys do know that Druids can be the target of a SS, right? soulstone is on top of the existing things. It's something extra, anyone else with SS else can simply decide to pick themselves up after dying.

Same thing now isn't it.

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... No. I'm going to just quote myself since I'd be repeating myself anyway:

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Q u o t e:
Not necessarily. Reincarnation is a second life for the Shaman. That's the obvious purpose of the spell (besides wipe prevention). Rebirth and Soulstone aren't a 2nd life for a specific person by default, but are used depending on how an encounter unfolds. A Druid running around with a 10 minute CD Rebirth doesn't affect a raider's gameplay like a 10 minute Reincarnation would affect a Shaman's gameplay.

Besides, Shaman are a different class. Reincarnation doesn't have to have the same CD as Rebirth, or DI, or SS. It's a nifty little spell in the Shaman arsenal that lets them rez themselves every now and then. Its CD doesn't at all have to be dictated by the CD of other spells.

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Q u o t e:


In practice, Shaman have Reincarnation in addition to having a Druid around to potentially cast Rebirth on them. Shaman benefit from Rebirth, too. Your spell has a longer CD not because it's necessarily more powerful, but because it has different implications on gameplay. "Spell x has a low CD, so spell y should as well," isn't a good argument in the least.

Rebirth is part of a Druid's utility. Reincarnation is a 2nd chance for the Shaman, and wipe prevention, every 50 or so minutes. It's easy to put them in the same category and judge one by differences with the other, but not particularly useful.

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Q u o t e:


You guys do know that Druids can be the target of a SS, right? soulstone is on top of the existing things. It's something extra, anyone else with SS else can simply decide to pick themselves up after dying.

Same thing now isn't it.

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Sure, unless you ignore the minor detail of a Druid not being able to Rebirth themselves, due to being dead.

Anybody can get a SS if the stars align so you get it, and you're the one who dies when it actually matters. Anybody other then the Druid can get a Brez. Only Shaman can just pick themselves up. Trying to equate these things is completely out to lunch.

Rebirth = A reincarnation effect usable on any player by a living Druid. Cooldown reduced to 10 minutes.

Soulstone = A reincarnation effect usable on any player, activated only by that player once they are dead. Cooldown reduced to 15 minutes.

Reincarnation = A self-only Soulstone effect only useable by that Shaman once they are dead. Cooldown reduced to 50 minutes.


Soulstone is the exact same ability as Reincarnation - except that it is infinitely more flexible.

Yet, reducing the cooldown on Soulstone to 15 minutes is (allegedly) not overpowered.

However, reducing the cooldown on Reincarnation to anything less than 50 minutes is (per GC) overpowered.

Ergo: Absurd.

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Q u o t e:
Statements of approval or disapproval alone don't do much for the discussion.

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Neither does circular logic, and poorly crafted arguments attempting to justify the unjustifiable.

But to each their own, I say.

Lets break this down really simple for you...


Soulstone vs. Ankh
In the most simple sceneario (lock puts SS on self) a Warlock has the exact same ability as a Shaman except its usable every pull.

That's a fact period. No arguing this.

However, unlike Reinc, you can put SS on someone more valuable than you if the fight dictates. (See SB Hard as an example. Reinc is useless in that case)


Rebirth vs Ankh

rebirth is not as useful to the Druid as Reinc is to shaman. On a single person basisevaluation this is obvious and very true. In single player play Rebirth is useless. soulstone has the same bonus ability

However, a raid is not single player play. It is made up of 25 people. Assuming 2 Druids per raid (not unreasonable in a 25 man), unless both druids die at the same time, you will always be able to use both BRez's if people die.

If someone else dies, there is nothing I can do to help them.



what you are saying is that the total number of in combat rezzes is too high if Ankh has a 10 min CD. I agree. I think 10 min is too low for Rebirth and 15 too low for SS. I think all of them should be reset to 60 min. Or even better, removed.

blizzard has done absolutely NOTHING to make this game HARDER in the last 2 years. Even one thing would be refreshing and awesome.

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Q u o t e:


Sure, unless you ignore the minor detail of a Druid not being able to Rebirth themselves, due to being dead.

Anybody can get a SS if the stars align so you get it, and you're the one who dies when it actually matters. Anybody other then the Druid can get a Brez. Only Shaman can just pick themselves up. Trying to equate these things is completely out to lunch.

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See my post above.

What raid runs with only 1 Druid?
The SS statement is just silly. Yes you have to 'guess' right with a SS. But you kow what. With Reinc you dont even have that option. As i stated above, in the most simple Scenario, where a lock puts SS on themselves every pull, its is EXACTLY like Reinc every pull.

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Q u o t e:
Rebirth = A reincarnation effect usable on any player by a living Druid. Cooldown reduced to 10 minutes.

Soulstone = A reincarnation effect usable on any player, activated only by that player once they are dead. Cooldown reduced to 15 minutes.

Reincarnation = A self-only Soulstone effect only useable by that Shaman once they are dead. Cooldown reduced to 50 minutes.


Soulstone is the exact same ability as Reincarnation - except that it is infinitely more flexible.

Yet, reducing the cooldown on Soulstone to 15 minutes is (allegedly) not overpowered.

However, reducing the cooldown on Reincarnation to anything less than 50 minutes is (per GC) overpowered.

Ergo: Absurd.

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You described the 3 spells without putting them into an overall context. You didn't respond to any of my points:

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Q u o t e:


Reincarnation is a second life for the Shaman. That's the obvious purpose of the spell (besides wipe prevention). Rebirth and Soulstone aren't a 2nd life for a specific person by default, but are used depending on how an encounter unfolds. A Druid running around with a 10 minute CD Rebirth doesn't affect a raider's gameplay like a 10 minute Reincarnation would affect a Shaman's gameplay.

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Q u o t e:
People don't go into encounters expecting a second life. Rebirth is helpful for when someone makes a mistake, but how people die is random and unpredictable. No one dies assuming that there's still going to be a Rebirth available to them. That wouldn't be the same for Shaman, who would go into every encounter with 2 lives - period. The Shaman class would be the class that can die twice every encounter, and, like I said, in an environment where there are Rebirths and Soulstones.

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Q u o t e:
The difference is that the SS is being used on the Shaman instead of someone else, and that it's a novelty. It's not the same as having a built in second life on top of the potential to get Rebirths and Soulstones.

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Q u o t e:
Lets break this down really simple for you...

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Don't pretend like "THE SPELLS ARE THE SAME BUT ONE HAS A LOWER CD" is somehow a genius argument. >.>

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Q u o t e:
Soulstone vs. Ankh
In the most simple sceneario (lock puts SS on self) a Warlock has the exact same ability as a Shaman except its usable every pull.

That's a fact period. No arguing this.

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In other words, you're not going to bother responding to my refutations of this point. You're just going to continue repeating it, except this time adding that "there's no arguing it".

Let me try to break down my argument. The novelty and potential opportunity cost (based on the fact that it could have been used on someone that is now otherwise dead throughout the encounter) of SS and Rebirth is incomparable to a 10 minute Reincarnation. The behavioral effects are different; the way they effect the mentality of any given raider is different; and Reincarnation is a nifty bonus for Shaman, compared to everyone else who has to rely on Rebirth and Soulstones.

No one is arguing about which is more powerful. Get that out of your head. A spell's CD doesn't have to be based on which is more powerful. There is a bigger picture to be looked at here, and you're completely refusing to see it. >.>

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Q u o t e:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA

Then I looked again
And I laughed even harder.

Then I looked a third time...
and just started crying...

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Q u o t e:
We might drop Reincarnation to 30 base, talented to 15. That's a slight nerf to the talent, but at the same time taking the cooldown that low might make an unattractive talent more attractive.

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30 minutes being what I agreed with. Pointing this out since I have no faith there's actual reading going on here.

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Q u o t e:
You described the 3 spells without putting them into an overall context. You didn't respond to any of my points:

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Your contrived "points" are hardly worth responding to in light of the fact that you have been unable to explain why Soulstone (Reincarnation, the flexible version) at 15 minutecooldown is not overpowered, but that Reincarnation at 50 minute cooldown is well balanced.

That's what this debate is about.


Your assumption of a 10 minute cooldown on Reincarnation makes your arguments as absurd as GC's original rationalization for reducing SS's cooldown to 15 minutes and Reincarnation's to 50 minutes lest it be overpowered.