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Q u o t e:

I fail to see what about this thread made it worthy of blueing in the first place.

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QFT!

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Q u o t e:


No, we all feel the same. But our mommies always told us "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Next time, we should try sending our request for information with free pie.

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LOL, you made my day!

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Q u o t e:
Even if you are certain in your heart that someone is wrong, wrong, wrong, you still need to maintain respect for them if you really want to engage in a conversation. I mention it just because it is a skill so poorly mastered by many of the posts on our forums. :(

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Whatever you say Wrongy Wrongson McWrongerton! Fix Shamans nao kkthnx.

Just kidding I enjoy my Shaman, keep up the good work.

We have an amazing shaman on the team, arguably one of the best in the world

Quote, blue


Only one shaman?

which spec?

how much influence does he have on shaman changes?

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Q u o t e:
We have an amazing shaman on the team, arguably one of the best in the world

Quote, blue


Only one shaman?

which spec?

how much influence does he have on shaman changes?

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True, he didnt say ele shammy :P!

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Q u o t e:
Designer != great player.

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From what I hear....GC still stands in voidzones. :-X

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Q u o t e:
"...
We have an amazing shaman on the team, arguably one of the best in the world, but it wouldn't matter if we didn't. We hire people who have a fundamental understanding of the classes and whose philosophy is in line with ours. We don't hire to fill a class quota. ."

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Do u have any hunter in your team?

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Q u o t e:
Well certain comments I have seen from blizzard show a fundimental lack of understanding for the class and it's mechanics. Such as the logic behind not lowering the ankh CD more.

Like the bit about dying so you could ankh in a different place, that is not at all how the skill works. Or dying to ankh and get mana?! What shaman would do that? You rez with less mana and no buffs. Bad plan. Plus the repair bill part of it.

I mean really it just seems like there is something off.

Once again, even something along the lines of, "We make it a requirement to play every class so we may make a balanced assessment." would put my mind at ease.

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Much like how GC told priests that MC is a very useful tool in pvp as we can use the abilities of our enemy while we control them... oh wait we can't!

Mabey just mabey the person who posted made a mistake. You'd be a complete moron to actually think that the devs don't know whats going on with a class they design, tweak, and balance to the best of their abilities.

The sky is not falling, in WoW its not programmed to.

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Q u o t e:


Much like how GC told priests that MC is a very useful tool in pvp as we can use the abilities of our enemy while we control them... oh wait we can't!

Mabey just mabey the person who posted made a mistake. You'd be a complete moron to actually think that the devs don't know whats going on with a class they design, tweak, and balance to the best of their abilities.

The sky is not falling, in WoW its not programmed to.

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The point of this is someone working at blizzard told its clients that they did not want a certain class to have a ability to do something because they believed it would allow said class to do something blizzard believed would unblance the game.

But the point is the statment the blue made was something most shamans would disagree with.

The game is still not balanced and shamans have had a bad history in terms of balance and changes to the class and specs

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Q u o t e:

The whole point of my original post was to point out that there is a massive difference between someone who plays a given class and therefore has strong opinions on that class, and someone who is a professional game designer. Many of you seemed to have missed that part.

We play the game because we think it's important to get "real world" validation for our design, and frankly because we all still love the game. But there are many great players who are terrible at game design and people with fantastic ideas who play the game pretty casually. Designer != great player.

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If I may, tying "plays a given class" to "therefore has strong opinions on that class" seems to be positioning the discussion in an unfair way.

Someone who plays a class would also have a lot of information about how fun that class is to play, and whether or not the class is experiencing problems. That person may also have strong opinions, and that is OK. What is important is whether the person is offering valid feedback.

Also, I, and I am thinking many others, are not generally saying what to do to fix a class, where we perceive problems. I know that many people offer suggestions -- or make demands -- but a lot of folks are simply saying that they are running into problems. I, and I hope many others, are relying on the Blizzard developers to figure out how to resolve the problems. I certainly don't have enough information about the game to know that changes are even possible. I don't think I can approach knowing which of the possible changes would break the game, or make the game actually worse off, or be unbalanced. But I very much can tell that the play of a class isn't working, or isn't fun, without being a professional game designer. Plus, I am thinking that the difference between a player and a game designer isn't the point. What seems to be the point is whether either are able to offer valid feedback as to the play of the game.

I am also surprised about the statement "We play the game because we think it's important to get "real world" validation for our design," I think this is a case where quotes and a somewhat vague phrasing aren't helping to deliver the message. Are you meaning that you think it's important to understand how well the class mechanics are working? If the class is fun to play? If there are abilities of the class that aren't being used? If the play of the class is showing up as unbalanced?

As well, "Designer != great player" seems to miss that the player doesn't have to be "great", although, that might help. I would hope that the designer has a lot of knowledge about how the class is playing, and playing the class is one way to gather that information. I'm thinking that some folks have stopped believing that the developers have a clear understanding of what is happening with the classes. That is hard to say without being confrontational, and is so sharp as to often destabilize the conversation. As an alternate, the disbelief is expressed as a question, which is to ask for concrete evidence of understanding. Absent a detailed explanation, one way of providing evidence is to put oneself through the experience of playing the class, and offer that as the evidence.

I would bet money that atleast one dev plays a shaman, or atleast has one leveled up,

Whats the testing processes like at blizzard?

I would like to think that at blizzard they have atleast 100 dream jobs where non union workers are doing nothing but playing each and every class equally 8 hours a day working in 3 shifts. With 2 vacation weeks a year.

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Q u o t e:
Designer != great player.

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Ooh, you hear that shamy dev? He said you sucked!





Just kidding, GC. You really do a great job of communicating to the player base, it's just a lot of people do a really poor job of listening.

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Q u o t e:


Some of you still have this misperception that we have "the shaman guy" who buffs or nerfs solely depending on his or her experience online the night before. That would be a pretty amateur way to do class design and I don't think it would account for WoW's longevity.

We have a class team and we work very closely together to make sure the changes are right for the game. Not a single change is made that doesn't weather some debate first. "Well, I play this class so I know and you don't" wouldn't fly around here. "Shaman are having problems here and here," is more typical and appropriate.

The whole point of my original post was to point out that there is a massive difference between someone who plays a given class and therefore has strong opinions on that class, and someone who is a professional game designer. Many of you seemed to have missed that part.

We play the game because we think it's important to get "real world" validation for our design, and frankly because we all still love the game. But there are many great players who are terrible at game design and people with fantastic ideas who play the game pretty casually. Designer != great player.

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Ghostcrawler, could you please redirect your shaman class developing team to this thread here..

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20122261484

Thank you! :)

Hmm... does every mechanic know how to drive a car like the world's #1 racer?

Does every scientist know how to get maximum power and efficiency out of fuel sources?

Will every artist enjoy a piece of art to the utmost degree, for every single atom that goes into it?

"Blizzard doesn't understand our class" is like saying to God "you don't understand life".

They created and designed the system. We play it. They try to manage it so that it stays within their design. We play it our own way. Blizzard changes things that stray too far from their original design. We whine and moan and cry that Blizzard is ruining *our* (implied) game.

Huh?

I don't get it...

Where's the logic?

If the world's best racer (not into racing, don't know any names) said "hey, my car should turn corners better! The top speed should remain constant, also. It should keep its fuel efficiency, too. Fix it!" should the engineers and mechanics be expected to comply?
They would click their tongues and say "sorry... this car wasn't designed for that."

Good thread!

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Q u o t e:




Um, that’s pretty much demanding a response. Even if you don’t call it literally “demanding,” it’s saying “I’m going to be really disappointed if you don’t answer my question.” My response to that kind of feedback (aside from refilling my special coffee cup) is to conclude that I’m just going to make people unhappy by only answering *some* questions and addressing *some* issues, so I am better off not answering any at all. The response you are looking for, namely that I answer *all* questions or conclude that *yours* are the most important and therefore the ones I need to answer, is just not realistic. Sorry.


You’re not allowed to get upset. Not publically. That’s not the way people behave in civil society. Yell at your monitor if you want. Post nasty things in your guild forum if that is cathartic. Go butcher gnolls. This is not the “I get to vent and that makes me feel better” forum. Sorry. If I got upset in a meeting with my peers or superiors, I would most likely be fired. So would you.

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First part I agree with yes.

Second part...this world is how it is because of people getting upset and demanding better...History FTW! If you get fired for getting frustrated with your boss then he is more of a putz then you want to admit. Think workers Unions. "That’s not the way people behave in civil society" you're kidding rt? I will cite history on a case by case basis if you think I'm wrong. Unrest = change.

Now that we are past that...we just want to know if any of our concerns are valid or even a "hey we will get back to you". There is no ele feedback on what you guys see us as.

I have never said you guys dont care about ele it the no feedback part that gets alot of us. When i say us I mean the 50+ top tier Ele shams I talk to about what salutions we may come up with to fix ele. Our comunity is tight and we have spent alot of time working the numbers.

If you poll the last 30 Ele threads, there are 2 main issues:

1. ToW. You have said you are looking into it. Thank you for that. However, thats something you hint at not doing till Cata. What do we do untill then?

2. Scaling. Some form of stat scaling needs to be addressed. You know it, we know it, how can you overlook or not give us any feedback on how blizz stands on this?

Out of the 15 i just went through these are easly the top 2 by a far margin.

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Q u o t e:


You’re not allowed to get upset. Not publically. That’s not the way people behave in civil society. Yell at your monitor if you want. Post nasty things in your guild forum if that is cathartic. Go butcher gnolls. This is not the “I get to vent and that makes me feel better” forum. Sorry. If I got upset in a meeting with my peers or superiors, I would most likely be fired. So would you.


You couldn't be more wrong, people do get upset in public and in meetings. Some of the best ideas come from heated meetings. I really don't know where you get your business ideas. If you don't want people to vent in these forums just say so but to throw out examples that are simply absurd is just as bad if not worse. Perhaps a little passion would alleviate some of the problems you have with your customers.

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Well said! That has to be one of the most bassakwords things i have ever seen from a Designer! LOL I had a room full of people's mouths dropping open when I read this lol. Masters in business fyi...just throwing that out there. If i said this to any of my workers i wouldent have any.

With that statement GC looks to be the gun shy employee unwilling to make a stad for anything. If my workers didnt stand up to me and tell me to get stuff fixed i dont know what id do. They are my eyes and ears and making them afraid to loose their job because of standing up to me would just piss me off more lol.