Edit: GC has said they might reduce to 30 min. I'm glad to see they're at least considering that it doesn't warrant as long of a CD as it has. As he said, there are more pressing matters, so we can let this rest.

Rebirth: The cooldown on this spell has been lowered from 20 minutes down to 10 minutes. Cannot be used in Arenas.
Create Soulstone: The cooldown on this spell and duration of its buff have been lowered from 30 minutes down to 15 minutes. Cannot be used in Arenas.

Reincarnation: The cooldown on this spell has been lowered from 60 minutes down to 50 minutes (Improved Reincarnation will continue to lower the cooldown by 10/20 minutes).

Seriously? SERIOUSLY???

And GC says this...

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Q u o t e:

We were concerned that a really short cooldown on an ability that rezzes you and only rezzes you would lead to bizarre behavior. Shamans could just commit suicide every fight knowing that they could come back. Standing in the fire too long? No problem. Too far away from where you want to be? Just die. Out of mana? Just die. Yes you might lose dps or healing time, but we still think it would happen and we think it would look weird.

Soulstone by comparison can easily be used on the "wrong" person (if they don't die) and Rebirth can't be used at all if the druid dies. In some ways, Reincarnation is the only cooldown that you are guaranteed to see every fight as soon as it becomes that dependable.

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Do you realize that about 1/3 of the time I use reincarnation, I die instantly due to AoE? I mean the health and mana we return with is dismal. Why would I want to stand in the fire or die because I'm out of mana. I come back with no buffs, and only a sliver of health and mana.

And no one, let me repeat, NO ONE specs into improved reincarnation. There is absolutely no room in the resto tree. If you want it to be 30 min CD, then make it 30 min baseline.

Really, this doesn't mean much, but it is one of the biggest slaps in the face I have ever seen. You really think reincarnation is powerful enough to warrant a 50 min CD, but rebirth weak enough to warrant a 10 min CD??? Rebirth is so vastly superior to reincarnation, it's not even funny.

[quote
Do you realize that about 1/3 of the time I use reincarnation, I die instantly due to AoE? I mean the health and mana we return with is dismal. Why would I want to stand in the fire or die because I'm out of mana. I come back with no buffs, and only a sliver of health and mana.
.[/quote]


lol aint that the truth. Sometime i pop, drop a hs and pot and still die b4 a heal lands

maybe you should be a bit more intelligent about when you reincarnate then

just sayin'

You should be able to reincarnate in arena.

I do agree with GC's reasoning to a point. It's not like the GMs are going to ask shamans to jump into a fire if they are OOM. If they did I would have been in deep trouble in naxx. Also I don't believe shamans would keep in mind anhk and make mistakes. OH WOW REZ IS UP GUESS I'LL STAY IN THIS FIRE. Why? because once you die your buffs which increase your dps are gone, your mana is gone, and the rez with no health. Also it displays a lack of awareness on the part of the shaman.

I'm not going to argue with GC on this matter, after all he has his reason. However I don't believe reincarnate should be a 50 minute CD. At least 10-15 minutes. But claiming that shamans are going to become careless over a self rez is playing an extreme I don't see in raids. If I saw a shaman jump into a fire because he was low on health or was OOM, I would boot him from the raid. That's a noob mistake that everyone can recognize.

I wouldn't really compare Reincarnate to Rebirth. The use of the spells is somewhat similar, but the mechanics are basically opposite.

A far closer analogue is Soulstone. The downside of a soulstone is that you have to reapply it every 15 minutes rather than having it always on - but the upside is that you can put it on whoever you want if you think somebody other than you is likely to die.

Reincarnation is passive, but it's for yourself only.


People bring up the argument "but soulstone makes you guess who's going to die"... true enough, but at least you have that option. If you put it on the "wrong" person, then it's not used... but if the shaman happens to be the "wrong" person, Reincarnation isn't used either. We just don't have the option of making that educated guess at who's most likely to die.

In that sense, there's functionally no difference between a soulstone always cast on yourself and reincarnation.

Given that, I don't see any reason why it should have a cooldown longer than soulstone - much less 3.33x longer.

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Q u o t e:
maybe you should be a bit more intelligent about when you reincarnate then

just sayin'

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Yes, like after the boss resets ;)

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Q u o t e:
I wouldn't really compare Reincarnate to Rebirth. The use of the spells is somewhat similar, but the mechanics are basically opposite.

A far closer analogue is Soulstone. The downside of a soulstone is that you have to reapply it every 15 minutes rather than having it always on - but the upside is that you can put it on whoever you want if you think somebody other than you is likely to die.

Reincarnation is passive, but it's for yourself only.


People bring up the argument "but soulstone makes you guess who's going to die"... true enough, but at least you have that option. If you put it on the "wrong" person, then it's not used... but if the shaman happens to be the "wrong" person, Reincarnation isn't used either. We just don't have the option of making that educated guess at who's most likely to die.

In that sense, there's functionally no difference between a soulstone always cast on yourself and reincarnation.

Given that, I don't see any reason why it should have a cooldown longer than soulstone - much less 3.33x longer.

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you just stated another reason b-rez is better than ankh - you get to use it on who you want


ankh is terrible. the only use of it is after a full wipe, to avoid the whole group having a long grave walk (which doesn't matter in any 80 instances, just a few while leveling up)

I was the person who started the original thread that Ghostcrawler replied to on this subject.

Honestly, I slightly see his point: having Reincarnation as a go-to "see this in every raid" kind of ability it loses it's flavor a bit and becomes more like an inadvertent cooldown you can rely on like Ardent Defender. I will sometimes get sloppy on my paladin tank and not worry about blowing trinkets or Divine Protection because I know I'll get a huge shaft of light warning me that "hey, you may want to press another button right now."

H-O-W-E-V-E-R.

In a world of 15 minute Lay on Hands (via minor glyph), 15 minute Soulstones, 10 minute Rebirths, Ardent Defender on 2 minute cooldown, and other such abilities, 50 minute Reincarnation seems like a completely trivial concern. Bringing it down to 30 minutes means you maybe see it once or twice in a raid - it would be pretty rare that the shaman would find themselves dead in a close "we can turn this around if we only had one more guy with 20% hp/mana" situation. The real problem, I imagine, is that Improved Reincarnation is a completely worthless talent that should be removed and they just don't want to do it before Cataclysm.

Bottom line: bringing it down to 30 minutes baselines would not meaningfully impact raid design/performance or legitimately lead to the "weird" scenarios Ghostcrawler fears. I can understand not wanting an otherwise obscure and flavorful spell suddenly become an actual raid cooldown to ALL specs of shaman... but this has already happened vis-a-vis Lay on Hands, Rebirth, and Soulstone. Just look at the logs of anyone doing Steelbreaker hardmode.

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Q u o t e:
ankh is terrible. the only use of it is after a full wipe, to avoid the whole group having a long grave walk (which doesn't matter in any 80 instances, just a few while leveling up)

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I wouldn't say that. While we're learning new fights, I tend to find use for it. If you announce it, you can usually get a shield or a riptide or something when you pop up, and then use a mana pot and a thunderstorm/shamanistic rage/mana spring and be ok on mana. It's not a useless ability by any stretch.

I don't expect needing to res once every 15 minutes. But having it on a non-stupid cooldown would mean I wouldn't have to worry about it so much. When I die, I always have to ask myself "is this attempt worth using my Reincarnation on? Can they kill it without me? What if we kill it this attempt and I need it on the next boss?...".. and that debate could even cause a wipe because while I'm debating it, they could fail to kill an add or break a shield or die to the swarm without the healing stream totem or whatever.


I don't know where GC is getting this strange idea that we'd use it for anything but ressing ourselves after we die. I mean.. yeah, we can use it to get mana back if you run totally dry, but you can do that with soulstone and rebirth too (a paladin in my guild has actually done exactly that before on Vezax Hard Mode with a soulstone), plus let's not forget that it's not something you'd normally want to do anyway - nor need to.

But using it because you're standing in the wrong place or have too many stacks of fire? I have no idea what that could possibly accomplish. It just means you made yourself look dumb, wasted your cooldown for no reason, put yourself at risk of dying again to AoE as soon as you pop up, dropped all but 20% of your mana, and earned yourself a repair bill over something that could be correctable without suicide. Shamans would still hope that we never have to use the ability. It'd just be there more reliably when we do need it.


So, bottom line: A 15 min cooldown on Reincarnation would change absolutely nothing about the spell except how comfortable we are using it without a mental debate about if it's worth the cooldown or not.

<shrug>

I can't for the life of me figure out why the least practical battle res has the longest cooldown. GC's reasoning is pretty thin, imo.

Longest spell CD ingame now ?

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Q u o t e:
Rebirth: The cooldown on this spell has been lowered from 20 minutes down to 10 minutes. Cannot be used in Arenas.
Create Soulstone: The cooldown on this spell and duration of its buff have been lowered from 30 minutes down to 15 minutes. Cannot be used in Arenas.

Reincarnation: The cooldown on this spell has been lowered from 60 minutes down to 50 minutes (Improved Reincarnation will continue to lower the cooldown by 10/20 minutes).

Seriously? SERIOUSLY???

And GC says this...



Do you realize that about 1/3 of the time I use reincarnation, I die instantly due to AoE? I mean the health and mana we return with is dismal. Why would I want to stand in the fire or die because I'm out of mana. I come back with no buffs, and only a sliver of health and mana.

And no one, let me repeat, NO ONE specs into improved reincarnation. There is absolutely no room in the resto tree. If you want it to be 30 min CD, then make it 30 min baseline.

Really, this doesn't mean much, but it is one of the biggest slaps in the face I have ever seen. You really think reincarnation is powerful enough to warrant a 50 min CD, but rebirth weak enough to warrant a 10 min CD??? Rebirth is so vastly superior to reincarnation, it's not even funny.

I'm not even going to ask nicely. Change this, and change it now.

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Did you see how horrible the shaman trees were before WOTLK???

lol @ talented 2 handers, 5 percent int for 5 points and end talent stat stick

^ is the biggest slap in the face

So what. GC has a good point, the spell isn't meant to give you a second life every boss attempt. Why the hell do you need it so often? I mean, who really cares anyway?

Its because he caught me killing myself to reapply bloodlust to myself when I was on my shaman!

The cooldown is being reduced by ten minutes, and all you people can do is whine that it wasn't reduced by enough?

The ability isn't really necessary in the first place, and there's not really a good reason to buff it. They've posted giving their exact reasoning, and it makes sense.

Stop spamming the forum with redundant threads like a bunch of babies and just take the damn buff for what it is.

I understand your frustration, but understand that any criticism of changes made to the Shaman class is entering shaky territory at this point. We should try to consolidate our concerns and issues into one thread, and also avoid arguing with other classes over whether or not we're lacking in viability in certain areas.

In other words, stay focused, stay calm, or the situation can only get worse.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20442617532&sid=1

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Q u o t e:

Do you realize that about 1/3 of the time I use reincarnation, I die instantly due to AoE?

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PEBKAC

people would begin to exploit it by using shammy to deal with certain encounters because they would pretty much have an extra life per fight.

Look at algalon for example when he does his big bang one could simply have a shammy sit outside the black holes and eat one if things go bad. Shammy then reserrects and they continue the fight with that work around. Now imagine that the raid decides to include more shammies simply so if all goes wrong they can have a shammy eat one for the team. Low Cd Self res would lead to issues im sure.

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Q u o t e:
people would begin to exploit it by using shammy to deal with certain encounters because they would pretty much have an extra life per fight.

Look at algalon for example when he does his big bang one could simply have a shammy sit outside the black holes and eat one if things go bad. Shammy then reserrects and they continue the fight with that work around. Now imagine that the raid decides to include more shammies simply so if all goes wrong they can have a shammy eat one for the team. Low Cd Self res would lead to issues im sure.

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And what's the difference between this and having a Warlock self soul-stone, and likewise eat one for the team in the same encounter???