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Someone may have mentioned this, but it actually makes haste better for dots than for direct cast spells, since you are getting more HPM. Haste (usually) makes you deal damage and spend mana faster.

Now you could balance it (maybe) if haste only affects some hots or dots but makes them more efficient in addition to just being faster. That is one of the many issues w'ere going to be grappling with.

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I'm going to be all over this when it's on the PTR...

Doesn't the renew glyph do something very similar right now? Trading HoT length for healing power? What kind of reception did that glyph get?

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Doesn't the renew glyph do something very similar right now? Trading HoT length for healing power? What kind of reception did that glyph get?

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The renew glyph is not the great at all but that is mostly because renew is bad.

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Doesn't the renew glyph do something very similar right now? Trading HoT length for healing power? What kind of reception did that glyph get?

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Faster ticks is kinda different than just bigger ticks.

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Haste (usually) makes you deal damage and spend mana faster.

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You really hit the big issue there Ghostcrawler.
Haste makes things more inefficient and that's the main reason I don't like haste on any mana using class.
Mana is too tight a resource already in many situations, especially while leveling. You could argue that it only matters or is important to endgame content, but then why have a stat that is only useful in such a small part of the game?

Haste making a spell more efficient would be a lot more beneficial in my opinion than making you cast faster for 2 reasons:
1) You hit a wall where haste just can't help some spells anymore a lot easier the way it is right now.
2) A complex rotation becomes even faster and thus more challenging with more haste, not to mention the mana drain can really ramp up.

I really don't know if changing the way haste works is the way to go, but it definitely is one of those stats that obviously has some benefits, but tends to have problems other than the usual expense of other stats you could gear for instead.

1) Am I going to gear for strength at the expense of agility as a druid? Will gearing for strength make my job harder as an innate function?
2) Am I going to gear for haste at the expense of crit rating? Will gearing for haste make my job harder?

The answer to number 1 is: no strength doesn't make the player's job harder.
The answer to number 2 is: yes haste can make the job harder.

Haste is just a much tougher choice than other stats since it has more caveats than other stats.

after all this reading i still thinking that a bonus based on crit and haste would be the better way to go(something like get half of the haste and crit bonus applied to spells coefficient... i dont know what would be the right number)... i know its not game changing as if they could crit or tick faster but would be more easier to balance...

over time effects must stay consistent....

I dont see why you want haste on hots in most circumstances. In many cases, the point of a HoT is that you keep healing the person for small amounts over an extended period, like a fire-forget spall. The smaller this extended period, you have less of a hot you have and more of a nourish. Its kind of defeating the purpose. Sometimes you want faster HoT ticks (translation more HPS), but sometimes you don't. Sometimes you want to spread out that healing on more people, which is what slower ticks are better for (for example, circumstances where you DONT want to have to keep refreshing your hots).

Having haste effect DoTs is vastly beneficial though, since its a direct increase to DPS.

and i just imagine hots ticking faster with the actual game interface.... we would lost performance in overall....
if we get a bonus to compensate this it will lead to a pvp problem...

please, whatever your decision is... take in account our actual interface and how it sucks for resto druids
we need something that show ticks remaining not overall duration

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Someone may have mentioned this, but it actually makes haste better for dots than for direct cast spells, since you are getting more HPM. Haste (usually) makes you deal damage and spend mana faster.

Now you could balance it (maybe) if haste only affects some hots or dots but makes them more efficient in addition to just being faster. That is one of the many issues w'ere going to be grappling with.

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Mana cost when we are talking about SW:Pain and Corruption for Aff locks is really a non-issue already, since they both refresh for free in PvE. Haste also won't affect rotations for those spells, unless haste is so good that the refresh mechanic is in real danger of not working.

But as glyphs, if they show to be better DPS then one of the currert aff glyphs (I'd bet on CoA getting the boot, CoA is just bad anyhow) then it will become the defacto glyph anyhow.

But, to get back at my point, you are only effecting the two spells that when used correctly in PvE shouldn't change rotations or mana use, so I'm not sure why you just don't tack them into existing talents and be done with it.

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Having haste effect DoTs is vastly beneficial though, since its a direct increase to DPS.

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we can make haste and crit increases dps or hps in another way.... just imagine you tracking your hasted over-time effects .... we would lose the time to refresh dots/hots frequently....

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we can make haste and crit increases dps or hps in another way.... just imagine you tracking your hasted over-time effects .... we would lose the time to refresh dots/hots frequently....

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and what lowers DPS is having to re-apply a DOT. So, reapplying DOTs might actually lower DPS more than faster ticks would increase it, or it might just come out a wash. I hate having to feel like I'm losing GCDs by having to re-apply DOTs more (not that druid DOTs are getting the haste bonus now, but just thinking long-term).

It would effect HOTs differently, since we could develop healing styles that took advantage of the shorter durations & faster ticks for certain encounters.

I'd actually rather see haste effect the HOT on regrowth, since it's actually so long that having a shortened tick time would actually be more awesome for regrowth & would make it worth using more often.

With this new system wouldn't this make resto druids even more overpowered in 2s and 3s than they are now because of the Hots ticking faster and doing more burst healing?

Would a good solution be to make the D/Hot's tick faster, but last the same amount of time? That way we don't need to worry about having to cast more often.

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It would effect HOTs differently, since we could develop healing styles that took advantage of the shorter durations & faster ticks for certain encounters.

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gimme an example please!!!

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Would a good solution be to make the D/Hot's tick faster, but last the same amount of time? That way we don't need to worry about having to cast more often.

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over time effects must be predictable... if we need more hps or dps buff our cast-time based-spells

overtime effects are not for raw power... they are complements

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and what lowers DPS is having to re-apply a DOT. So, reapplying DOTs might actually lower DPS more than faster ticks would increase it, or it might just come out a wash. I hate having to feel like I'm losing GCDs by having to re-apply DOTs more (not that druid DOTs are getting the haste bonus now, but just thinking long-term).

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No, your reasoning is quite wrong.

Every time you cast a damaging spell, you do a certain amount of damage. For nukes this damage is applied immediately, for DoTs this damage is applied over the duration of the spell. The reason DoT classes cast their DoTs is because the damage-per-cast-time is higher for their DoTs than for their nukes. Think about it; if you "wasted" GCDs casting DoTs, why would you cast DoTs in the first place?

Having haste reduce the DoT duration allows you to cast your DoTs more often, which means you're using your highest DPCT spells more often, which means it's always a DPS increase. Another way to think of it is that hasted DoTs mean you "waste" less time casting your filler spells in between DoTs.

As far as healing goes, definitely a double edged sword. Because we can always roll HoTs on multiple targets; our HPS wouldn't actually increase or decrease with the haste. What it does do is focus your healing onto fewer targets; in some fights that's a benefit, in others it might be a detriment.

For DPS, you could probably roll the DoT haste into talents fairly safely, since it's never a bad thing. For healers, it should definitely be a glyph option. Some priests use the Renew glyph, others don't; personally I think that's much more interesting than the standard "Use this glyph, no choice" slots like Circle of Healing.

Blizzard could give druids the option to disable the haste for their hots if this is desired, for example on twin valkyr or anubarak. But I don't know if the devs are willing to do this. I think its just very important that the devs recognize the fact that haste is sometimes undesirable for HoTs, but always desirable for DoTs.

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gimme an example please!!!

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There's plenty of examples where faster and more powerful HoTs would be more effective.

Any time a small people are taking heavy damage for a limited duration, a hasted HoT would be better. That could be anything from Napalm on Mimiron, to Stone Grip on Kologarn, to Paralytic Poison on Beasts, to Penetrating Cold on Anub'arak.

For blanket AOE damage like Steelbreaker or Twin Valkyr, hasted HoTs could be better or worse either way. Your HoTs heal more, but you can't roll HoTs on as many people. Sometimes that's a benifit, sometimes not.

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No, your reasoning is quite wrong.

Every time you cast a damaging spell, you do a certain amount of damage. For nukes this damage is applied immediately, for DoTs this damage is applied over the duration of the spell. The reason DoT classes cast their DoTs is because the damage-per-cast-time is higher for their DoTs than for their nukes. Think about it; if you "wasted" GCDs casting DoTs, why would you cast DoTs in the first place?

Having haste reduce the DoT duration allows you to cast your DoTs more often, which means you're using your highest DPCT spells more often, which means it's always a DPS increase. Another way to think of it is that hasted DoTs mean you "waste" less time casting your filler spells in between DoTs.

As far as healing goes, definitely a double edged sword. Because we can always roll HoTs on multiple targets; our HPS wouldn't actually increase or decrease with the haste. What it does do is focus your healing onto fewer targets; in some fights that's a benefit, in others it might be a detriment.

For DPS, you could probably roll the DoT haste into talents fairly safely, since it's never a bad thing. For healers, it should definitely be a glyph option. Some priests use the Renew glyph, others don't; personally I think that's much more interesting than the standard "Use this glyph, no choice" slots like Circle of Healing.

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I don't see it, but... I think I'd like to see more math on it for each class first. The warlock & priest DOT might just be such a big advantage compared to the nukes that it always comes out higher, which I wouldn't know.

I was talking about for moonkin. For moonkin (who aren't getting the change right now), I know we glyph to actually extend the duration of moonfire. It just seems counterproductive to also reduce it's duration (which is why the glyph isn't in place in 3.3). You aren't actually increasing the total amount of damage it does during each application, so it would seem like refreshing it more often (for moonkin) would be counterproductive because some of our DOTs are almost not worth casting between nuke casts. There are actually times when using insect swarm isn't a DPS increase for moonkin, and we primarily cast it because it buffs our wrath damage done because of the way the DOTs interact with nukes for moonkin.

For the DPS classes they are releasing them for, it's likely that those DOTs are such a big DPS increase for them, that it comes out okay. It just doesn't seem intuitive that faster DOTs would be better overall. It probably depends on the DOT... We need to see the math on it first, though.

For rejuvenation, if it was actually so advantageous to use a shorter duration (faster ticking) HOT on targets, we'd be using lifebloom more as a raid heal...