---

Q u o t e:
Getting Energy, Focus or Rage faster is a big deal and can lead directly to higher dps. That is usually less of an issue for mana. Haste is already pretty attractive for many casters, just not those that use a lot of over-time spells.

---

I understand what you are saying, but with respect to Mana, I disagree. Making Haste affect Mana regeneration is an excellent idea and I would value Haste much more if this were the case. Perhaps there could be a programmatic interaction between Haste and Spirit?

---

Q u o t e:
I wouldn't worry about Renew at this point or any other over-time spell. We're not even 100% sure we're going to offer it for Rejuv or if will even greatly benefit Rejuv or if you'll lose too many GCDs on Rejuv (or whether that will be okay). It just feels a little premature to worry about classes potentially getting left out.

---

One of the great things about Rejuv Club was that the spell ticked slowly. It was reliable and ticked for a long time. Now, with your proposed change on the PTR, this is not quite the case. Subjecting Rejuv to Haste will necessitate more frequent refreshing or the choice of another spell for a given opportunity to cast. Perhaps with such high levels of damage and higher HPs in the final installment of Wrath, adding a Haste component to Rejuv may be necessary? If this is the case, I understand the motivation to a degree.

I love how you gave Rejuv the ability to Crit with the set bonus. Not to beat a dead Brewfest Ram, but what about the Hot Grits, Hot Crits possibility, where there is not only the ability for Rejuv to Crit, like the set bonus, but the possibility of multiple levels of Crit? To further dream a little dream, what about a relationship between Haste and Crit that is roughly similar to the dynamic between Int and Spirit? Now that might be interesting.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/453/hotcritshotgrits.jpg

/2cents

In the case of Affliction locks, Corruption is automatically refreshed as part of a normal rotation anyway, so having it tick faster with haste as a baseline change wouldn't change much. It would, however, save a glyph spot. :)

EDIT:
On a side note, you could also simply make haste increase the strength of HoTs/DoTs by the % haste you have. I.E. 11.23% haste would increase the strength of your DoTs/HoTs by 11.23% etc.

The haste idea sounds good, but I'd like to make a suggestion for a slight change. Making the DoT burn out faster creates a problem for the class you are fixing. Watching three dots to make sure they don't fall off, cycling your other dps spells, not standing in fire or too close to the boss, and switching to adds and back is challenging enough. Making the DoTs fall off quickly is a negative to our play no matter how you look at it. So the buff is a simultaneous nerf.

How about you cause haste to speed up the ticks, but the duration remains the same. So instead of SWP ticking 6 times over 18 seconds, it ticks 7, 8 or 9 times depending on your haste value. You get the same dps benefit (if the tick amounts are set right), but the player doesn't have to have the reflexes and situational awareness of Einstein's smarter Olympic athlete brother.

Just a thought,
-D

---

Q u o t e:
We are trying to make haste a slightly more attractive stat for classes that utilize a lot of damage or healing over time spells, specifically Shadow priests, warlocks (though especially Affliction) and Resto druids. We realize other classes use hots and dots too, but I think we can all agree that it's a bigger problem for the ones I mentioned.

I'm going to share with you an idea that the class and item designers came up with for 3.3. This is a work in progress so it's possible we'll end up going a different way after we see how it plays. However I also wanted to explain our logic here in case it wasn't obvious.

We have new tech that will allow specific hots and dots to tick faster -- the time between ticks would decrease. This means more damage or healing per time but also having to refresh those spells more often. Since there is a trade-off, we're not sure the change is a no-brainer, especially in the healing case.

Because of this, we are planning on introducing the concept through glyphs. Glyphs represent a great test bed for new ideas because they are easier to change (and easier on the players when we do change them) compared to core spell functions or even talents. If we like the way it feels and players like the way it feels and the glyphs prove popular or fun, then this may be the kind of thing that shifts from glyphs over time -- not unlike the way some favorite set bonuses eventually become talents.

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Again, these are not promises (nor ponies). For a variety of reasons, you may see these changes on the PTR or you may not. If you do see any or all of the three glyphs implemented however, we wanted you to have some idea of what we were trying to do. Feedback is certainly appreciated, especially if you get to try them out.

---

Why not let it increase the rate at which a dot/hot ticks, but not affect the actual duration of the dot/hot on the target. That does sound pretty over-powered, but there may be simple ways of tweaking scaling so that it is still a buf, but not completely OP in PVP/E.

Overall, excited to see that change, but make sure Flame Shock gets included! :)

first off, this sounds like the first good change to resto druid playstyle you guys have made since creating wild growth... my full haste set (830 haste) would greatly appreciate such a move.


now...back to actual criticism.


you guys really are pushing for no crit on resto druid gear aren't you. at least for now people get a decent amount of crit for t9 4 piece or even tank healing. with this new glyph, you would effectively remove the want of crit for any tree that could sustain the mana needed to cast the amount of rejuv's this new style would require. doing some quick math in my head with spark of hope + rejuv idol, it wouldnt even be that hard, though that depends on how much this will be affected by haste. given the need, i could grab the haste trinket out of WG badges, the spark of life trinket from hos (or hol, i cant remember which) and gem all reckless and get 1000 haste.

thats about twice what most druids have. for these glyphs to even be considered useful, they would need to have a noticeable effect at a haste level at or around the average haste amount these days,which i'd figure to be about 400 or so for healers. at my haste level, this glyph would probably be way too op for constant dmg fights like twins or even anub phase 3.


and thats not even looking at the effects this type of glyph would have on pvp healing for resto druids.


my only thought to a way of avoiding such a problem would be to have the ticks tick A LOT faster but the time be severely reduced. like rejuv would last a third of its current length at 1000 haste.

this would probably add such a mana issue that overstacking of haste wouldnt be too widespread of an issue

Why do glyphs at all for the dots, since the specs you are trying to help auto-refresh those dots as part of their rotation, it doesn't change the number of GCDs used, unless you think Corruption will now tick so fast that there is massively more danger of haunt not coming off cooldown fast enough to refresh it?

I know its too soon to say how effective it will be, without the numbers to theorycraft with, but asking us to give up our proven glyphs for a test on a spell that should be refreshed by proper game play.

I guess I don't see what this proves as far as GCD impact goes since you seem to only be affecting the abilities we almost never recast.

As a side note, thank you for the tail swipe fix for pets!!! Now teach them to jump down stuff with us and I'll love you long time! =D

---

Q u o t e:

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Again, these are not promises (nor ponies). For a variety of reasons, you may see these changes on the PTR or you may not. If you do see any or all of the three glyphs implemented however, we wanted you to have some idea of what we were trying to do. Feedback is certainly appreciated, especially if you get to try them out.

---

Why just Shadow word :Pain? Why not devouring plague and VT as well ?

It sounds like a good idea to me for Shadow Priests. Because of Pain and Suffering, SW:P isn't normally manually refreshed, so any downside of increased mana usage or a more complicated cast sequence is avoided entirely. I don't know if it will be quite enough to make single target Shadow damage competitive with other hybrid dps classes, but it should certainly lessen the gap. Plus it will slightly increase burst damage against adds that normally get wiped out before shadow damage can ramp up effectively.

I'm not sure that speeding up tics on sw:p would make all that much difference unless you had a butt load of haste since it refreshes with mind flay and mind flay is pretty much the most used spell.

I'm pretty sure the common rotation is VT->DP->MB->MF-SW:P

Then using MF and MB refreshing VT and DP when needed.

To me it seems the only real benefit to SW:P scaling with haste is when on the move or refreshing other dots where you might get another tic or two. I like this don't get me wrong extra dps is extra dps so i'll do my best to take advantage of it, but i don't think its going to make a huge difference.

Now put it on VT and/or DP and now we are talking.

I didn't do any math yet but that is my initial reaction.

So I like the idea of this change, particularly in glyph form, because it sounds like an interesting mechanic and putting it in as a glyph gives us some room to play without having to commit fully to the change right away.

The things that seems a little odd to me as a resto druid is that, the way I see it, we have three tiers (so to speak) of speed for single target HoT ticks--lifebloom (fastest), rejuv (medium), and regrowth (slowest). Lifebloom has lost a lot of its punch over the last few patches, and though I appreciate the effort to move resto druids away from simply rolling lifeblooms, it almost seems that lifebloom will be made even more obsolete by a change like this. The "bloom" on lifebloom is nearly always overhealing in pve anyway (I don't pvp so I can't speak from that perspective) so the way I use it now is to drop a single LB when I need a fast-ticking HoT on someone for whatever reason. If rejuv ticks faster, then what's the point of ever casting lifebloom?

I admit to not being a super hardcore raider or theorycrafter, so maybe there's just something I'm missing. I'm pretty sure the Blizz devs don't want spells to be obsolete, or they'd just get rid of them. Is there a particular utility in mind for lifebloom versus rejuvenation? Part of me feels that if the ticks are going to be sped up on rejuv, and the bloom in lifebloom is pretty useless, then why have the spell at all?

I tend to agree with a lot of other posters that a way to make the ticks on rejuv have a potential to crit is, at least on the surface, much more attractive than a faster-ticking, sooner-ending rejuvenation.

It'd be nice of you included Living Bomb in this in some fashion. It doesn't scale so well with haste, though it manages to stay good DPS for one GCD you spend casting it. I'd love to just stack crit for fire for best LB effect, but it seems the current itemization won't allow for that. Speeding up ignite I'm less worried about if they don't get munched, but you could probably safely just make it run faster w/o a glyph.

And heck, while I'm posting... ppen a glyph slot for scorch, or otherwise make it stack faster, pls ;)

---

Q u o t e:
The things that seems a little odd to me as a resto druid is that, the way I see it, we have three tiers (so to speak) of speed for single target HoT ticks--lifebloom (fastest), rejuv (medium), and regrowth (slowest).

---

Lifebloom and wild growth both tick once per second. Rejuv and Regrowth both tick once every three seconds. There is no speed tier. I imagine you'd need an awful lot of haste to make rejuv tick every second, but regardless, it would still stack with lifebloomx3 on a tank, which is the only place most druids cast lifebloom.

The reason why its pertaining to druids/warlocks/spriests is not just thier damage atm, but because of the types of spells they have.
Warlocks (affliction) spells:
Corruption, UA, CoA, DS, SB, Haunt
Of the warlock spells 3/6 of the spells gain nothing from the stat called haste
Shadow priests:
SW:P, VT,DP,MF, MB
Of the Shadow priest spells 3/5 of the spells gain nothing from haste
Druid Healings:
LB,Regrowth,Rejuv, WG, HT, Nourish
Of the Druid healing spells 4/6 of the spells gain nothing from haste

So there is some good reasoning why these classes are considered for this haste buff.

---

Q u o t e:


Lifebloom and wild growth both tick once per second. Rejuv and Regrowth both tick once every three seconds. There is no speed tier. I imagine you'd need an awful lot of haste to make rejuv tick every second, but regardless, it would still stack with lifebloomx3 on a tank, which is the only place most druids cast lifebloom.

---

This is true. I suppose in my mind I think of regrowth as the "slowest" because of the direct-heal portion; i.e. it's the slowest to get to the HoT functionality, which is what I generally use it for (another HoT stack on a tank, for example--if I want a direct heal specifically, I'll generally use nourish).

Faster rejuv utility sounds very situational and dependent on play style. I'm on the fence. But again, I probably don't play at the kind of level where it would make a huge difference anyway. *shrug*

Firstly appologies if in the previous 7 pages this has already been mentioned but in a hurry fir work so I had to skim.

Obviously there must be some formula Blizz has in mind for X haste to increase HoT ticks by a time %
So why not just leave the overall spell duration alone & have the HoTs tick faster , but for less each tick.
The overall heal amount over the full duration of the spell wouldnt change at all, just the HoTs tick faster , but for less each tick . Dosnt that help to address any more casts = heavier mana usage issues GC said could be an issue ? It also dosnt GCD lock druids further after the incoming Rej nerf...errr I meant bug .. :-)


Really rough eg for Rej specifically (figures pulled from thin air)..its just an example

2k/tick every 3 secs , 12 secs

with X amount of haste

1k/tick every 1.5secs for 12secs

I offer my support with you trying this idea out.

The possibility of HOTs and DOTs getting support from the haste mechanics has been on my mind for a long time. Now that you say that you can, this will be a beautiful thing to test out.

Druids being able to heal within a quicker time frame.

Warlocks being able to make their targets suffer at a faster pace. Both from their Affliction spells and their haste buffed pets.

I hope the PTR testing turns out well because in doing so might open up the possibility of a haste improvement for my Mage who is built to be an AOE specialist.

---

Q u o t e:
This is true. I suppose in my mind I think of regrowth as the "slowest" because of the direct-heal portion; i.e. it's the slowest to get to the HoT functionality, which is what I generally use it for (another HoT stack on a tank, for example--if I want a direct heal specifically, I'll generally use nourish).

---

Fair enough. :) If rejuv had a base tick speed of once every two seconds, as it sounded like you were implying, it would take less haste for it to equal lifebloom's tick/second speed. However, even if lifebloom and rejuv ticked at the same speed, it would be irrelevant for me. Rejuv has already replaced lifebloom. The only place I use lifebloom is on tanks, where rejuv would still stack even with a faster tick.

---

Q u o t e:

How about you cause haste to speed up the ticks, but the duration remains the same. So instead of SWP ticking 6 times over 18 seconds, it ticks 7, 8 or 9 times depending on your haste value. You get the same dps benefit (if the tick amounts are set right), but the player doesn't have to have the reflexes and situational awareness of Einstein's smarter Olympic athlete brother.

Just a thought,
-D

---

This wouldn't work.

The whole point of GCsproposal is better scaling with haste for the named classes. The idea behind the quoted text would be counter intuitive to that. The reason being is that it would create large gaps in your haste stacking till you can reach little mini plateaus when you gain an extra tick. So lets say you get a tick ever 40 haste you stack. What happens if you gain 30 haste from an upgrade? Nothing... It brings proper haste scaling back to 0. The only way they can do it is by compressing the dot. Same ammount of ticks but the intervals between ticks being lowered (thereby lowering the duration). You just can't do it the other way without shooting yourself in the foot.

It's an odd propsal considering that it creates a tradeoff for us, which I kind of don't like. For a mage: More haste = better! More crit = better! More spellpower = better! But for us: More spellpower = Maybe better!

I dunno. But if it's just pain, then yes, it's a buff for spriests (can only speak for my class, haven't played the others). It's much needed.