World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Dots, hots and haste

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

0. Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:17:21 PM PDT

We are trying to make haste a slightly more attractive stat for classes that utilize a lot of damage or healing over time spells, specifically Shadow priests, warlocks (though especially Affliction) and Resto druids. We realize other classes use hots and dots too, but I think we can all agree that it's a bigger problem for the ones I mentioned.

I'm going to share with you an idea that the class and item designers came up with for 3.3. This is a work in progress so it's possible we'll end up going a different way after we see how it plays. However I also wanted to explain our logic here in case it wasn't obvious.

We have new tech that will allow specific hots and dots to tick faster -- the time between ticks would decrease. This means more damage or healing per time but also having to refresh those spells more often. Since there is a trade-off, we're not sure the change is a no-brainer, especially in the healing case.

Because of this, we are planning on introducing the concept through glyphs. Glyphs represent a great test bed for new ideas because they are easier to change (and easier on the players when we do change them) compared to core spell functions or even talents. If we like the way it feels and players like the way it feels and the glyphs prove popular or fun, then this may be the kind of thing that shifts from glyphs over time -- not unlike the way some favorite set bonuses eventually become talents.

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Again, these are not promises (nor ponies). For a variety of reasons, you may see these changes on the PTR or you may not. If you do see any or all of the three glyphs implemented however, we wanted you to have some idea of what we were trying to do. Feedback is certainly appreciated, especially if you get to try them out.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Affixqc

< Quality Control >

Tichondrius

1. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:18:07 PM PDT

My initial reaction is that proc haste effects will make dots too strong. Black Magic Enchant + Haste Trinket = tons of 'simulated burst' damage on multiple targets that is mostly uninterruptable. Particularly strong against teams that have no magical dispel.

Conceptually, though, it sounds pretty cool if it were limited to just one or two dots in a class's arsenal.

[ Post edited by Affixqc ]

Toesecks

Bleeding Hollow

2. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:18:53 PM PDT

Let haste be good for Arms Warriors. Stop leaving us in the dust.

[ Post edited by Toesecks ]

Luph

Magtheridon

3. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:19:09 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Incoming happy players.

I'm from Maryland but Ghostcrawler is the only crab I like.

Winklala

Draenor

4. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:19:51 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

I love you and would like to have your babies.

It's a great idea for "endless" DoTs like Shadow Word: Pain (except for multidotting, so if you're looking for a way to kill multidotting as a way to boost spriest dps in other ways), I'm not so sure when it comes to fixed length DoTs - the rotations go from 'complicated' to 'omgwtf I need a supercomputer to accomplish my optimal rotation.

[ Post edited by Winklala ]

Galstaff

< Sick >

Kel'Thuzad

5. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:20:40 PM PDT

Interesting... will be nice to see how this effects DPS. Any rough numbers on what the conversion rate will be?

Thunderthize

< Encore >

Illidan

6. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:21:40 PM PDT

A trade-off system through glyphs, makes sense!
This sounds like it would make sense, and I hope it gets some good testing on PTR.

Persecution

< Inevitable >

Velen

7. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:24:55 PM PDT

I like it. If it works out I would love to see Glyph of Blood Corruption / Holy Vengeance (so as not to remove the Glyph of Seal of Veng/Corr)

Alternatively; Glyph of Righteous Vengeance.

[ Post edited by Persecution ]

It is almost impossible to exaggerate the complete unimportance of almost everything.

Meaning

< Spike Flail >

Ner'zhul

8. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:25:30 PM PDT

Very nice.

Galstaff

< Sick >

Kel'Thuzad

9. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:25:45 PM PDT

Also, I like how it's on SW:P, as that doesn't screw up my rotation so much, but if SW:P continues to work as it does are you worried about seeing weapon-swapping macros or other unforeseen tomfoolery that might be exploited to get the craziest haste bonus possible for the SW:P that should last the entire fight?

Jushiro

< Enrage Inc >

Bleeding Hollow

11. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:26:07 PM PDT

Does this mean affliction will actually have three good glyphs -- NICE! :D

Look right through me, look right through me
And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had

Muphrid

< Intervention >

Llane

12. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:26:20 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
My initial reaction is that proc haste effects will make dots too strong. Black Magic Enchant + Haste Trinket = tons of 'simulated burst' damage on multiple targets that is mostly uninterruptable. Particularly strong against teams that have no magical dispel.

Conceptually, though, it sounds pretty cool if it were limited to just one or two dots in a class's arsenal.

What one must understand about haste on DoTs is that it is not, in and of itself, impossible to balance. Burst is conceptually just how hard and fast damage is applied (and in what size chunks). Since people went from dungeon blues to ilevel 245-258 epics, DoTs have not scaled with haste--proportionally speaking, they have mattered less and less because most damage scales with haste but not DoTs. Allowing DoTs to tick and expire faster corrects that. It's not imbalanced (although we can't say whether these DoTs have deliberately done more damage to compensate for bad scaling). It's just equal scaling.

That said, I welcome when this is not merely a glyph based change (although I understand using glyphs as a test bed) and is done across the board.

Edit: one concern I do have is that having only, say, SWP on a haste glyph can lead to rotations getting skewed as haste increases, something that wouldn't occur if all a class's DoTs were hastened. And this still leaves in question how DoTs on CDs will eventually be handled (e.g. Devouring Plague).

Edit edit: obviously not a concern for Shadow priests specifically, as they use Mind Flay to refresh SWP, but a general concern nonetheless.

[ Post edited by Muphrid ]

E = h*q*(m+r*d)*(1+b*c)
Scaling theory: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2038122089
Proportional Scaling: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417421740

Mindplague

Alleria

13. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:27:44 PM PDT

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

I foresee complected spell "priority" rotations for dots classes, I guess with MF refresh and SWP, that isn't a problem. Good play.

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Happyapple

< Stay on Target >

Bloodhoof

14. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:28:14 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
My initial reaction is that proc haste effects will make dots too strong. Black Magic Enchant + Haste Trinket = tons of 'simulated burst' damage on multiple targets that is mostly uninterruptable. Particularly strong against teams that have no magical dispel.

Conceptually, though, it sounds pretty cool if it were limited to just one or two dots in a class's arsenal.

While I understand your concern about the DoTs having more burst, IMO for Warlocks, you cannot say "mostly uninterruptable". Warlocks have 2 instant spells that are DoTs and 2 casted spells which only one of those can be on the target and Haunt is a cast and is what makes the DoTs stronger. (not really a DoT but a debuff). Also, dispels can be considered an interrupt.

I am glad, however, to see that haste scaling is being addressed for DoTs. I am anxious to see how it scaled for Affliction. Obviously, being bias, I think more DoTs will need to benefit from it. Maybe UA (cast DoT and Corruption?)

Thanks Blues.

[ Post edited by Happyapple ]

Jeremiasjose

< Blood Bath and Beyon… >

Lightninghoof

15. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:30:02 PM PDT

Cool.

Do other classes who get almost nothing from haste (like hunters =] ) have any chances on getting it doing any good too?

Samelault

< Annihilation >

Sentinels

16. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:31:14 PM PDT

GC, you probably already know this but its worth mentioning - even with direct damage spells, haste increases the rate of casting (and thus damage, and thus mana consumption) so it wouldn't be any different than it works for non OT spells.

Looking forward to trying out this change :)

Edit: my poorly illustrated point is that it shouldn't be a big deal - we have to take these kinds of issues into consideration already, so a change like this would fit into our already-existing decision-making structure.

[ Post edited by Samelault ]

"I'd compare BGs [...] to something more like a bar brawl. It's violent, there's no real sense of organization, and someone's going to be drunk, naked, and furious at the end." - Cytrode, Kirin Tor

Winklala

Draenor

17. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:31:54 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
And this still leaves in question how DoTs on CDs will eventually be handled (e.g. Devouring Plague).

The solution would be to remove the cooldown and make them '1 target only', much like what was done to devouring plague.

Affixqc

< Quality Control >

Tichondrius

18. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:32:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

What one must understand about haste on DoTs is that it is not, in and of itself, impossible to balance. Burst is conceptually just how hard and fast damage is applied (and in what size chunks). Since people went from dungeon blues to ilevel 245-258 epics, DoTs have not scaled with haste--proportionally speaking, they have mattered less and less because most damage scales with haste but not DoTs. Allowing DoTs to tick and expire faster corrects that. It's not imbalanced (although we can't say whether these DoTs have deliberately done more damage to compensate for bad scaling). It's just equal scaling.

That said, I welcome when this is not merely a glyph based change (although I understand using glyphs as a test bed) and is done across the board.

Edit: one concern I do have is that having only, say, SWP on a haste glyph can lead to rotations getting skewed as haste increases, something that wouldn't occur if all a class's DoTs were hastened. And this still leaves in question how DoTs on CDs will eventually be handled (e.g. Devouring Plague).

I'm not talking about DPS scaling, I'm talking about burst potential, particularly in PvP. I'm quite aware that haste scales poorly with dots, I just think that 'dot burst' has the potential to be too high with the proposed changes.

Q u o t e:
While I understand your concern about the DoTs having more burst, IMO for Warlocks, you cannot "mostly uninterruptable". Warlocks have 2 instant spells that are DoTs and 2 casted spells which only one of those can be on the target and Haunt is a cast (not really a DoT but a debuff).

Here's a specific example: Shadowplay, Haunt Lock/Shadow Priest/Resto Shaman. Both pop their haste trinkets, blow a bunch of dots in to people, maybe one or both get a Black Magic proc. 3+ uncasted dots on 3 targets plus their pets, maybe a UA or two to protect them (pretty much impossible to interrupt a haste lock with a haste trinket and black magic and heroism using UA).

Not saying a team like that shouldn't be rewarded for getting this kind of cast sequence off, but it is possible that it could very quickly spiral out of control.

Dezmora

< Malicious >

Tichondrius

19. Re: Dots, hots and haste 10/07/2009 01:32:27 PM PDT

Sounds awesome, but any chance for a renew glyph with the same type of effect?

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