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  • 20. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 09:03:07 AM PDT
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i was also thinking that bosses should gain avoidance so people could also get more hit/expertise without those stats exploding in pvp/lower level content.
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  • Echo Isles
  • 21. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 09:08:07 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
i was also thinking that bosses should gain avoidance so people could also get more hit/expertise without those stats exploding in pvp/lower level content.

Bosses don't gain expertise because the devs don't like the idea of making the playerbase feel that their own stat gains are being rendered ineffectual. It's not a nice feeling to have to upgrade an entire tier just to put you back to where you already were one major patch ago.

Bosses aren't going to gain extra avoidance (outside of specific boss mechanics) either because of the same reason, because the amounts of hit and expertise found on items are generally created with the specific stat ceilings in mind, and because those ceilings have to remain relatively static so that the value of the stat can remain predictable.

[ Post edited by Prinsesa ]


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www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Echo+Isles&n=Prinsipe
www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Echo+Isles&n=Drudenko
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  • Nordrassil
  • 22. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 09:26:08 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
every raid teir avoidance is increased, but the bosses never have any form of extra expertise or increase critical strike chance (I know gear right now is balanced around them not getting any more crit)


It would make sense that they would though, they sort of do every level, so why not every raid teir?


Or maybe they could just give the bosses more HP, make them hit harder, or make them harder fights.

But nah, those ideas are crazy....

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19110030110&sid=1

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  • 23. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:09:55 AM PDT
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or...

wait for it...


they could just tone down avoidance.

Wait wait wait. . . . .

WHAT!?!?!

I has make bear flirts with other man in disguise of woman? No cool.
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  • 24. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:16:32 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
or...

wait for it...


they could just tone down avoidance.


which makes avoidance a junk stat =/
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  • The Venture Co
  • 25. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:23:06 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
which makes avoidance a junk stat =/

Not really. Avoidance DR butchers any thought of actually gemming for avoidance anyway.

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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 26. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:37:36 AM PDT
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It's something we actually talk about quite a bit. We won't do it for Icecrown, but it could happen in the future.

The basic problem is that bosses don't scale with gear. Their health and damage go up. That's it. You might avoid a first tier boss 30% of the time and a final tier boss 60% of the time. That means when that final boss hits you, he needs to hit for twice as much (not even counting that he already needs to hit harder to account for your higher health and armor). If you are a dps class, you might crit a low tier boss 30% of the time and a high tier boss 50% of the time. Why should you be proportionately more powerful against more powerful enemies? If anything it just makes us scale their health and damage to extreme points.

Players generally expect the monsters in an RPG to get more powerful as the characters do. Otherwise the game just gets easier over time. WoW has traditionally not scaled any mob stats beyond damage done and health. I think if we always had done it nobody would think it was weird. You don't get disappointed for example that the bosses hit harder as your health goes up, so why should it be any different of the mobs hit more often as your avoidance goes up? Sunwell Radiance felt odd because it was a sudden, unpredictable addition. If things always had worked that way I think players would just have accepted it.

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  • Tanaris
  • 27. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:44:19 AM PDT
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I don't really see the point. At that stage you might as well just remove avoidance from gear, since it's a pointless stat to get anyhow.

I didn't spend seven aeons feasting on the souls of the righteous just so I could play typing games with the functionally illiterate.
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  • 28. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 10:50:02 AM PDT
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^ This assumes the amount of expertise the bosses gain per tier would gain would exactly counter the avoidance you gain per tier. It doesn't have to be that way, and even if it was, getting the gear still has a purpose (since you'd get creamed in gear with less avoidance).

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

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  • Mal'Ganis
  • 29. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:01:00 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
It's something we actually talk about quite a bit. We won't do it for Icecrown, but it could happen in the future.

The basic problem is that bosses don't scale with gear. Their health and damage go up. That's it. You might avoid a first tier boss 30% of the time and a final tier boss 60% of the time. That means when that final boss hits you, he needs to hit for twice as much (not even counting that he already needs to hit harder to account for your higher health and armor). If you are a dps class, you might crit a low tier boss 30% of the time and a high tier boss 50% of the time. Why should you be proportionately more powerful against more powerful enemies? If anything it just makes us scale their health and damage to extreme points.

Players generally expect the monsters in an RPG to get more powerful as the characters do. Otherwise the game just gets easier over time. WoW has traditionally not scaled any mob stats beyond damage done and health. I think if we always had done it nobody would think it was weird. You don't get disappointed for example that the bosses hit harder as your health goes up, so why should it be any different of the mobs hit more often as your avoidance goes up? Sunwell Radiance felt odd because it was a sudden, unpredictable addition. If things always had worked that way I think players would just have accepted it.
So perhaps rather than all raid bosses being level cap + 3, you might have T11 bosses be 87, T12 be 88, T13 be 89, and T14 be 90? That would probably be a more natural way to accomplish that than just by giving them expertise/hit/resilience.

You'd have to adjust the rules for hitting higher-level mobs so that your chance to do anything/survive being hit doesn't slant up so ridiculously, but it would work, especially since you're scrapping defense. It would also mean that the hit cap would go up each tier so you could afford to put more hit on gear each tier, since if you scaled it up that way now it would just be wasted.

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  • 30. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:15:16 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
It's something we actually talk about quite a bit. We won't do it for Icecrown, but it could happen in the future.

The basic problem is that bosses don't scale with gear. Their health and damage go up. That's it. You might avoid a first tier boss 30% of the time and a final tier boss 60% of the time. That means when that final boss hits you, he needs to hit for twice as much (not even counting that he already needs to hit harder to account for your higher health and armor). If you are a dps class, you might crit a low tier boss 30% of the time and a high tier boss 50% of the time. Why should you be proportionately more powerful against more powerful enemies? If anything it just makes us scale their health and damage to extreme points.

Players generally expect the monsters in an RPG to get more powerful as the characters do. Otherwise the game just gets easier over time. WoW has traditionally not scaled any mob stats beyond damage done and health. I think if we always had done it nobody would think it was weird. You don't get disappointed for example that the bosses hit harder as your health goes up, so why should it be any different of the mobs hit more often as your avoidance goes up? Sunwell Radiance felt odd because it was a sudden, unpredictable addition. If things always had worked that way I think players would just have accepted it.



Why not change the way the system works to allow most avoidance be scaled due to talents, make tanking feel sort of like dpsing with a much higher HP pool, higher threat, and decent amount of mitigation and survivability techniques.

Allow raid tier gear to scale by increasing the survivability of the tanks through set bonuses, gemming, and base stat to avoidance conversions. This can be achieved by monitoring and testing before a live release to ensure that avoidance does not get out of hand, but also so healers and tanks don't feel like they need constant cooldowns to survive 2 landing attacks from a boss in a row.

Tank damage and possible death has to be real, otherwise there would be no need for a tank spec, but players also shouldn't have to worry of being 2 shot by every raid boss in any real progression fight for future content.
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  • Magtheridon
  • 31. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:17:34 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I don't really see the point. At that stage you might as well just remove avoidance from gear, since it's a pointless stat to get anyhow.


It's a sliding gear check. You couldn't go tank Arthas in Naxx gear because your avoidance would be garbage against him. 5% dodge or so would be laughable.

It would keep gear inflation somewhat in check, and if the numbers were done right, you could continue to remain relatively more powerful in each tier, so that you get the feel of progression while also preventing the necessity of 60k hits.

Also forces you to have to gear up in an instance before you have a good shot at downing the final boss, thereby slowing progression and the "THIS SUCKS WHY ARE WE GETTING FULL CLEARS DAY AFTER RELEASE" rabble.

"Try fighting me irl, where's your travel form button now?? Yeah that's what I thought, sissy."
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  • 32. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:27:58 AM PDT
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what if, for say the last tier, bosses are level 84 instead of 83? That would accomplish a number of things: Freshly leveled bads couldn't pug their way through it like ToC normal has turned out to be, and Avoidance, Hit, Expertise, Crit etc would be alot lower due to the increase in mob level, but with the gear numbers being as high as they are in wrath, it really wouldn't be that much of a problem.
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  • Greymane
  • 33. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:31:00 AM PDT
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Couple problems with the approach of scaling the enemies defensive stats.

Critting more often and for more is part of the fun in progressing your character through the expansion. It would seem to remove some of the carrot to say "well your character sheet says 50% crit, but this dude is just so badass your back to the 30 you had in Tier X."

The other point you make that it forces you to scale HP to an extreme level doesn't seem like a problem at all. I'd guess that most people actually like it. "OMG Arthas has 62million HP!11!!" Helps to make the encounter seem more epic.
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  • 34. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:34:27 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Couple problems with the approach of scaling the enemies defensive stats.

Critting more often and for more is part of the fun in progressing your character through the expansion. It would seem to remove some of the carrot to say "well your character sheet says 50% crit, but this dude is just so badass your back to the 30 you had in Tier X."

The other point you make that it forces you to scale HP to an extreme level doesn't seem like a problem at all. I'd guess that most people actually like it. "OMG Arthas has 62million HP!11!!" Helps to make the encounter seem more epic.


Other than perception, there's no real difference between doing 10,000 DPS on something with 1,000,000 life and doing 1,000 DPS on something with 100,000 life. :/
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  • 35. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:35:35 AM PDT
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Another idea for the tanking side of this, is to actually allow bosses to crit you.

How i figure this to be possible is giving tanks more cooldowns, maybe like 3-4 effective cooldowns, some with long timers, some with short, dependent on the current situation. Allow tanks to be crit, but have them mitigate alot, place these factors into the tank spec of their choosing. Tank death and damage would still be evident, however the bosses wouldn't need to hit for half of a tanks health, much less even if the hit is a crit, but make it so healers don't get completely bored, and have to react to a tank getting crit and going down to lets say 75% HP or 60% due to a melee crit.
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  • Dragonblight
  • 36. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:45:45 AM PDT
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This seems like the perfect thread to say: BUFF BALINDA!!!! (No seriously, get on to buffing the AV bosses :()

But on the topic of the thread, I think GC summed it up perfectly: as our avoidance gets higher the bosses have to hit harder to make so that when they DO hit, it's a devastating blow.

I think ToC was experimenting with bosses critting (as well as trash), which while probably not a fun mechanic could be something done to make some boss fights more interesting.

The issue was that damage scaled so much, as did avoidance, but health didn't really increase as much as it should have (that probably goes for both PvE and PvP). I think higher health for everyone, higher damage from the bosses and smaller heals would have made it more interesting?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20122253439&sid=1 - Buff Balinda Stonehearth :(
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  • 37. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:51:46 AM PDT
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Perception is exactly the issue though. People see their avoidance go from 30% to 60% and expect to avoid 30% more often. When they find that they don't, a lot of people will sit there scratching their heads. You then get into the horrible problem you have with ratings and DR on avoidance now, you need an advanced differential math degree and a mod to actually figure out what X rating means. You'd successfully make the system even less transparent, further obfuscating what those numbers mean.

Now granted most of us die hard tanks are fairly powerful theorycrafters/number crunchers in our own right. However is that fair to foist that upon the entire tanking community as a whole?

Honestly I don't care what solution Blizzard implements, I only care that it's transparent to the end user and that it doesn't require mods to figure out. If I want to find out how much I'll avoid, I should look at my IN GAME character sheet, not a mod, and I shouldn't have to download a spreadsheet from a third party. I'm tired of the fact Blizzard lets that sheet lie to us. It's bad design to show a statistic and then put YMMV in parenthesis and think that's ok.
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  • Moon Guard
  • 38. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 11:53:09 AM PDT
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Blizzard can directly control our avoidance scaling by controlling how much avoidance is on the gear that drops. If they want us to take less spikey, more even damage they could have the bosses drop gear with very little dodge or parry rating, but instead loaded up with extra armor or stamina. There's really no need for changing game mechanics if they're really not happy with the effect that increasing avoidance has on tank damage taken profiles.
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  • 39. Re: why cant bosses have expertise?   10/22/2009 12:06:52 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Perception is exactly the issue though. People see their avoidance go from 30% to 60% and expect to avoid 30% more often. When they find that they don't, a lot of people will sit there scratching their heads. You then get into the horrible problem you have with ratings and DR on avoidance now, you need an advanced differential math degree and a mod to actually figure out what X rating means. You'd successfully make the system even less transparent, further obfuscating what those numbers mean.

Now granted most of us die hard tanks are fairly powerful theorycrafters/number crunchers in our own right. However is that fair to foist that upon the entire tanking community as a whole?

Honestly I don't care what solution Blizzard implements, I only care that it's transparent to the end user and that it doesn't require mods to figure out. If I want to find out how much I'll avoid, I should look at my IN GAME character sheet, not a mod, and I shouldn't have to download a spreadsheet from a third party. I'm tired of the fact Blizzard lets that sheet lie to us. It's bad design to show a statistic and then put YMMV in parenthesis and think that's ok.


thats not quite how it would work. you see IF bosses did get expertise and other stuff, then it would lower yoru avoidance/crit by a set amount, and DR would be unecessary.

That way, X amount of rating STILL gives you Y% avoidance, just that a set amount like Z% is cut off. The benefit remains the same no matter what. Its less complicated than it sounds. Most of this tuff is already incorporated in pvp anyway.
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