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Q u o t e:


Find a rogue who can Vanish in a Flare, and I'll give you my account.

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Could they sprint, run out of a flare, vanish, come back in within the 1 second (I just mean vanishing and coming in, I don't mean every other step as well) and open up again? Will flare get them out of vanish within that 1 second or not?

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Q u o t e:


Could they sprint, run out of a flare, vanish, come back in within the 1 second (I just mean vanishing and coming in, I don't mean every other step as well) and open up again? Will flare get them out of vanish within that 1 second or not?

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Flare's entire purpose for being is to bring a rogue out of stealth regardless of any buffs given to Vanish.

You still will not be able to enter a Flare or Vanish with Faerie Fire on you.

Has anyone actually done testing yet? Because I would really like to see some results... Obviously we would all agree that flare of all abilities should still bring you out, this fix should not negate that. But it will be interesting to see what else happens. Will frost nova snare us but keep us in stealth effectively pointing out where we are? etc

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Q u o t e:


Flare's entire purpose for being is to bring a rogue out of stealth regardless of any buffs given to Vanish.

You still will not be able to enter a Flare or Vanish with Faerie Fire on you.

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That's my entire point. Does Blizzard understand the implications of its own change? You seem to be implying Flare isn't considered a hostile spell/ability, others may disagree. I'm curious to know who is right, I think this is an important question that hunters (and other classes with this type of spell/ability) have the right to know.

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Q u o t e:
Has anyone actually done testing yet? Because I would really like to see some results... Obviously we would all agree that flare of all abilities should still bring you out, this fix should not negate that. But it will be interesting to see what else happens. Will frost nova snare us but keep us in stealth effectively pointing out where we are? etc

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This is what I had in mind for my first post, although I didn't make it very clear. I'm confused about 2 things. 1. Will abilities that could technically be considered hostile but are designed to be a counter to things like Vanish still work? And 2. Will abilities that do damage or have any root/snare effect still do that damage and have that effect (even though it won't bring the rogue out of stealth)?

The whole point of the PTR is to identify and deal with edge cases from changes like this. Rogues have been waiting for this for years... don't be harshing their vibe, man.

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Q u o t e:


Get out scrub.

Ret paladins have never been OP, but have been hot fix nerfed more than any class in the history of the game.

Rogues on the other hand, OP since season 1 and now getting a massive buff to one of their most powerful cooldowns.

Fair and balanced right?

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HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Warriors and Rogues are going to demolish pet classes even more then they already do in 3.3. Then again those two classes really needed help in pvp.

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Q u o t e:

vanish doesnt take a gcd u baddy.

seems i quoted the wrong guy cuz im a baddy too

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You still have to wait for the bars, mashing your attack key for cheapshot doesn't exactly end well if you use mutilate instead.

Thats the same thing to me, as the shifting animation and light up takes damn near a second. I'll admit I'm wrong about hard GCD though, and given the advise above, I'll just make a macro for it and stick it on a sidebar and hotkey that rather than rely on the default UI stealth panel.

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Q u o t e:
One ability that gets douched by vanish < vanish getting douched by every other ability in the game due to buggy as hell mechanics that are compounded by latency. It's not fair, but unless you have a better idea then there's really no point in arguing it.

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Not one ability - any instant cast, no travel time ability that has a cooldown. Deep Freeze, Cheap Shot, Blind, Sap, any stun in the game, Repentance, etc.

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Q u o t e:
Again there is no solution that has been viably offered beyond this simple fix blizzard has implemented. It really is the most logical course of action to repair an ability that has been plagued with issues for years.

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There have been a few - make this change not apply to AoE effects, which can't cause vanish to 'fail' anyway. Reduce the duration to 0.1/0.2/0.3 seconds.

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Q u o t e:
because you're only dealing in the 100-500 ms range with those times, and that's just from a single client to the server, not considering both clients. Granted, the server should be smoothing out 100-250ms on it's own but that's a different story, technically speaking. Perhaps 0.5 seconds will do the trick, but i really want to see how vanish functions against my shaman on PTR asap with it's current iteration before i go leaping to conclusions about the 1sec duration. Again, my major concern is how it will interact with abilities that explicitly target stealth, rather than abilities which happen to unfavorably intersect with the new change.

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A spell that destealths a rogue after 0.3 seconds is not 'breaking vanish', it's just destealthing them. Unless you think something like Counterspell might destealth a rogue after 1/3rd of a second, which seems incredibly unlikely.

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Q u o t e:
The whole point of the PTR is to identify and deal with edge cases from changes like this. Rogues have been waiting for this for years... don't be harshing their vibe, man.

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Prot pallies right after 3.2 (I think it was), were almost unkillable due to that talent that gives back health when they are hit by something that would kill them. They fixed it fast, but it was on live.

Burst when Wrath arena started was absurd, it was nerfed, just not as quickly as the prot pally situation above. This was on live.

Readiness affecting TBW for BM was a very popular spec for a couple weeks before they nerfed it. But it was on live.

Kill shot range was bugged from the release of Wrath to 3.1 (?). This is a case where it was known, and it was on live.

The cower bug was known from the release of Wrath to 3.2. This is another case where it was known, and it was on live.

I'm not entirely convinced Blizzard can actually identify a lot of the problems they create when they try to fix other problems. Nor am I convinced that they can or are willing to fix some of they problems they do know about. Sometimes they fix things pretty quickly, but then again holypal/dk in s5 was OP for the entire season, and they admitted it. This stuff makes it to live all the time and in some instances, stays there for an unforgivable length of time.

People were just as harsh (if not more so) when hunters were finally viable in s5, even though for every season previous to that they were terrible.

Criticisms and questions should be explored and taken seriously, especially when the class being buffed is getting no nerfs and already does well (some would say very well) in PvP.

I hate dealing with rogues, and have suspicions that they should be nerfed.

However, I still think this is a good change. Because of the way that client/server interaction is handled, vanish has always had issues, and barring this change, the only way to fix it would be to change that interaction in a way that would have other negative effects (such as destroying the way that shatter combos work for frost mages).

If rogues need nerfs (and as I said, I suspect they do) then that should happen, but rogues should not be balanced around having an ability like vanish that very rarely does what it's supposed to do when rogues need it most. I don't see how the game is better for every one when class mechanics have to be left deliberately broken in order to promote balance. If that was the plan, then simply remove vanish from the game.

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Q u o t e:

Not one ability - any instant cast, no travel time ability that has a cooldown. Deep Freeze, Cheap Shot, Blind, Sap, any stun in the game, Repentance, etc.

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That's how it is NOW!

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Q u o t e:

There have been a few - make this change not apply to AoE effects, which can't cause vanish to 'fail' anyway. Reduce the duration to 0.1/0.2/0.3 seconds.

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For MOST people, 1 second is a perfectly reasonable amount of time. It probably would take that long for just for the server to tell you he's vanished.

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Q u o t e:

A spell that destealths a rogue after 0.3 seconds is not 'breaking vanish', it's just destealthing them. Unless you think something like Counterspell might destealth a rogue after 1/3rd of a second, which seems incredibly unlikely.

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HOW ELSE TO YOU BREAK VANISH?! You bring them out of stealth. That's also called destealth.

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Q u o t e:

The cower bug was known from the release of Wrath to 3.2.

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The cower bug existed in vanilla and was never fixed. It just sort of went away when cower was an ability that you could choose not to teach your pet, because no one ever uses cower on purpose.

The cower bug was more akin to the vanish "bug" in that it's always been around, but Blizzard never sat down as said "getting rid of this is a top priority" and hunters could just work around it.

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Q u o t e:

HOW ELSE TO YOU BREAK VANISH?! You bring them out of stealth. That's also called destealth.

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I think he is making the distinction between "breaking vanish" in the sense that some action you have taken results in the direct failure of the ability to do what it is intended to. You want to define "breaking vanish" as simply knocking someone out of stealth, which doesn't actually break the mechanic of vanish or stealth itself (unless previous action results in direct failure of ability).

In other words, "breaking vanish" in his sense would be like a shot from a hunter (cast before vanish was initiated) flying through the air and hitting the rogue after he has already vanished to bring him out (like on live). "Breaking vanish" in your sense would be like a rogue walking into a flare, or someone seeing a rogue stealthed and hitting them with an attack to bring them out of stealth. They are not the same.

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Q u o t e:
The cower bug existed in vanilla and was never fixed. It just sort of went away when cower was an ability that you could choose not to teach your pet, because no one ever uses cower on purpose.

The cower bug was more akin to the vanish "bug" in that it's always been around, but Blizzard never sat down as said "getting rid of this is a top priority" and hunters could just work around it.

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I don't remember once looking at my pet's abilities (pre-Wrath, which for me was about mid-TBC on) in the spellbook and saying "I didn't turn cower on, how did this happen?" I remember numerous times I did this in Wrath. It only "went away" when 3.2 came out...or at least that is when I stopped noticing it happened randomly.

Either way, it just proves my point that Blizzard doesn't always take action (whether or not it is top priority) even when they know something is bugged, and it can be on live for a very long time.

I can see your point, but how many people can react to a vanish in .20 seconds? That's basically how fast you would have to react in order for this change to affect you.

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Q u o t e:
I can see your point, but how many people can react to a vanish in .20 seconds? That's basically how fast you would have to react in order for this change to affect you.

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He's(she's) a mage so he probably has Arcane Explosion bound to a key he is ready to press immediately. It seems a bit biased on his part (as a hunter I can say .3sec is nothing with a 1.5sec hard-capped GCD), but I think his point is well taken: 1 second seems like a bit too long; the rogue has the chance to flee, or open again without any chance of a player being able to counter it, no matter how quick or skilled the player is, which I think is the point he/she was making.

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Q u o t e:
For MOST people, 1 second is a perfectly reasonable amount of time. It probably would take that long for just for the server to tell you he's vanished.

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It's all just a series of tube to you isn't it?



Lower the time to .6 seconds and make it breakable by AoE.

Also the point the mage keeps seeming to miss is that the 0.3s you are mentioning has long past gone by the time you see the rogue vanish on your screen... its 1s on the server, not 1s on your client.

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Q u o t e:


It's all just a series of tube to you isn't it?



Lower the time to .6 seconds and make it breakable by AoE.

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600ms latency in game does not take into account server processing/interactions... checking interface response times doesn't even go through half the architecture of your NIC which is the real slow part of telecommunications, not the actual distance.