World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.3 PTR Rejuv change

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

260. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 09:53:03 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
When a max rank Rejuv goes from a 15 second HoT to a 12 second HoT, its SP coefficient inherently goes down because the duration of it is the primary factor in determining how much of your SP it benefits from. I mean, you guys designed it this way. I feel like an unbearable prick for repeating this here ;)

Anyways, the issue that people were raising was that when you guys shave 3 seconds off its duration, will you also be slightly buffing the max rank coefficient so that the amount healed per tick is the same as what a 15 second Rejuv would tick for.

The max rank coefficient is correct for a 12 second spell. The error was that the spell was 15 sec long. It was an unintended buff to the max rank. We sat on it for awhile, but decided it was time to make the change. The coefficient is 0.376 on live and will be 0.376 in 3.3.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

261. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 09:53:59 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
This is also why we just want to have one rank per character level in Cataclysm.

Huh? I thought it was [going to be] one rank per spell. Could you elaborate, if this isn't too much of a sidetrack?

Edit: Everyone seems to have assumed spell coefficients are something that are calculated based on cast time or hot duration. I think the above should kill that little theory once and for all; its a number in a file someplace that they set to whatever they feel like, probably with common sense guidelines.

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

Kryssa

< Reckless Abandon >

Arygos

262. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 09:56:16 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Im confused, are you not looking at the screenshots showing you that no amount of spell power is changing the difference between the two ranks? How can you say going from 1,000 sp to 2,000 is a huge difference when there is 0 change from 0 spell to over 2700 unbuffed. NO CHANGE AT ALL.

It looks like it is scaling with Gear and Talents just fine.

Rejuv No Gear No Talents = 298 / 338
Rejuv No Gear w/ Talents = 388 / 440
Rejuv w/ Gear No Talents = 1344 / 1383
Rejuv w/ Gear w/ Talents = 2018 / 2070

As you can easily see from the pictures, when you add in spell power (from gear) it scales vary nicely. When you add in Talents, it also scales. As GC mentioned, the difference between the spells at different ranks is small, as they are intended to scale with spell power. Hence why down ranking was essentially removed, and why they intend to go to a single rank system in Cataclysm. So, yes, I think it was made clear that the difference between Rank 14 and Rank 15 of the spell was intended to be small.

As for the actual change from 15 to 12 seconds on Rejuv, I think this actually brings us more in line with Priests and Shammies now. I already thought it was considerably OP how Druids completely dominate a fight like Valkyries especially in 25 man. Though that will still happen to some extent, since it is really based upon fight and spell mechanics. This really follows more in line with Blizzards philosophy of bring the player, not the class.

After this change, Pallies will really be the only outlayer, as the 3.2 patch gave them a significant boost. And as far as I'm concerned, they should be allowed to enjoy their time at the top since they were under cards for a while. It wouldn't surprise me if they got a bit of a nerf down the road to be more in line with the other healing classes.

Keiyra

< Vindication >

Arygos

263. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 09:57:02 AM PDT

GC i think you are misuderstanding their concern. No one is questioning the coefficient between ranks 14 and 15. There should be little to no change in the coefficient as the increase in spellpower acting on that coefficient is where increased healing will come from (scaling)

Where i think there is concern is that because the base value from rank 14 to 15 changes so little... that no matter what spellpower you have, the difference in output between rank 14 and 15 is tiny (58 healing per tick according to previous posts)

That begs the question, why bother having rank 15 at all. If you include a new rank, people will expect it to be better than the previous rank, and preferably following the pattern of improvement of all previous ranks.

IE if going from rank 9 to rank 10 gives you 10% increased healing output (regardless of spellpower)... then people expect going from rank 14 to 15 to provide a similar increase.

With the proposed changes, going from 14 to 15 is almost moot... you could completely remove rank 15 and all we would lose is 250 healing or so per cast.

I would suggest increasing the base heal amount of rank 15. It would make rank 15 actually heal for more than rank 14. That or get rid of rank 15... and just make rank 14 the max rank. As it stands (on the ptr) there is no tangible difference between either one.

[ Post edited by Keiyra ]

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

264. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 09:57:11 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Huh? I thought it was [going to be] one rank per spell. Could you elaborate, if this isn't too much of a sidetrack?

He just means that you'll have Holy Light level 1 at level 1 and Holy Light level 2 at level 2 and Holy Light level 3 at level 3 and so on.

Nulasgalad

< Addicted >

Eonar

265. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:00:24 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

The max rank coefficient is correct for a 12 second spell. The error was that the spell was 15 sec long. It was an unintended buff to the max rank. We sat on it for awhile, but decided it was time to make the change. The coefficient is 0.376 on live and will be 0.376 in 3.3.

The baseline .376 coefficient is a per tick coefficient that is correct for any duration of hot. I think his point was that the total coefficient is the per tick coefficient x ticks which obviously will decrease.

The talented per tick coefficient is 0.646 before and after the incoming fix.
The total coefficient is 3.88 for the entire 6 tick duration .
The total coefficient is 3.23 for the entire 5 tick new duration.

[ Post edited by Nulasgalad ]

Brayne

Uther

266. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:01:41 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Brayne, your screenshots appear to show that the base points improve but that that the coefficient does not increase between rank 14 and 15. Correct? That is exactly how it works. The gain in points between rank 14 and 15 is 40% and goes up to about 52.5% with talents. The coefficient is 0.376 for both ranks, and in fact all ranks. You just suffer a coefficient penalty when you downrank (that probably isn't even needed any longer).

You would be correct in the fact that the coefficient is not changing, and thus rank 14 and rank 15 are almost identical minus 260 healing spread out over the 12 seconds (65 tick difference, actually even talented were only given a 58 increase per tick) but that does not change the fact that you completely gutted its base healing amount when you ALSO removed the extra tick.

Lets be clear, two separate changes. You removed the tick, and then you also lowered the base amount it heals for (more so then what it would be if you just removed the last tick) and made rejuv rank 14 and 15 almost identical, so much so that you could remove rank 15 right now and all we would ever lose is 58 tick as it stands no matter how much spell we lose or gain that difference between the two never changes.

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

267. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:03:42 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
IE if going from rank 9 to rank 10 gives you 10% increased healing output (regardless of spellpower)... then people expect going from rank 14 to 15 to provide a similar increase.

According to the druid's numbers from a few pages back, rank 10 is 300% more powerful than rank 9. It would be silly to expect that every time, sorry.

Q u o t e:
With the proposed changes, going from 14 to 15 is almost moot... you could completely remove rank 15 and all we would lose is 250 healing or so per cast.

If I use rank 8 Flash of Light instead of rank 9 Flash of Light I lose 183 healing per cast. GC has already answered this concern.

Q u o t e:
I would suggest increasing the base heal amount of rank 15. It would not effect scaling (as that is based on spellpower and the coefficient) but would make rank 15 actually heal for more than rank 14. That or get rid of rank 15... and just make rank 14 the max rank. As it stands (on the ptr) there is no tangible difference between either one.

You're more than welcome to cast rank 14 in place of rank 15. It would be stupid to do so, and would make you less efficient, but there's nothing stopping you.

Zebrimuri

< The War Council >

Silver Hand

268. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:05:11 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
The max rank coefficient is correct for a 12 second spell. The error was that the spell was 15 sec long. It was an unintended buff to the max rank. We sat on it for awhile, but decided it was time to make the change. The coefficient is 0.376 on live and will be 0.376 in 3.3.

Thanks for the clarification.

15 sec Rejuv was discussed relatively extensively in WotLK Beta, so people were under the assumption that its duration was intended, and 0.376 was the appropriate coefficient for that duration instead of 12 seconds.

Storm, Earth and Fire - http://zebrimuri.blogspot.com
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Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

269. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:07:02 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Lets be clear, two separate changes. You removed the tick, and then you also lowered the base amount it heals for (more so then what it would be if you just removed the last tick)

Are you sure?

Q u o t e:
Rejuvenation now heals 1352 over 12 sec. (Down from 1690 over 15 sec)

(1690 / 15) * 12 = 1352.

???

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

Etal

< Bloodmoon Chosen >

Argent Dawn

271. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:07:36 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
As you can easily see from the pictures, when you add in spell power (from gear) it scales vary nicely. When you add in Talents, it also scales. As GC mentioned, the difference between the spells at different ranks is small, as they are intended to scale with spell power. Hence why down ranking was essentially removed, and why they intend to go to a single rank system in Cataclysm. So, yes, I think it was made clear that the difference between Rank 14 and Rank 15 of the spell was intended to be small.

You balance against a time when Rejuvenation was not used.

Q u o t e:
As for the actual change from 15 to 12 seconds on Rejuv, I think this actually brings us more in line with Priests and Shammies now. I already thought it was considerably OP how Druids completely dominate a fight like Valkyries especially in 25 man. Though that will still happen to some extent, since it is really based upon fight and spell mechanics. This really follows more in line with Blizzards philosophy of bring the player, not the class.

Druids are the only HoT class in the game so of course they are going to dominate fights that favor HoT healing. This is a content problem not a class problem. Until Priests get a viable HoT they will not dominate fights with auras. Why do people not get this? Are you so fixated on the Healing Meters that you are completely blind to the natural deficiencies of HoT’s? It's not that hard to understand. Predicable constant AoE damage is great for HoT’s and sucks for Direct Heals.

If you balance them in these encounters YOU BREAK HOT HEALING.

Vernia

< Minion >

Silvermoon

272. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:09:51 AM PDT

The pb is not the amount one tick heals for, its the total amount healed by the full rejuv whether 5 or 6 ticks.
And you have to compare that total amount with the outpout of other classes.
Rejuv was really healing for too much.
You are trying to negotiate to have rejuv rank 15 5 ticks heals as much as rejuv rank 15 6 ticks.
But this is really the total amount that was the issue not how fast or how slow it was applied.

Q u o t e:
GC i think you are misuderstanding their concern. No one is questioning the coefficient between ranks 14 and 15. There should be little to no change in the coefficient as the increase in spellpower acting on that coefficient is where increased healing will come from (scaling)

Where i think there is concern is that because the base value from rank 14 to 15 changes so little... that no matter what spellpower you have, the difference in output between rank 14 and 15 is tiny (58 healing per tick according to previous posts)

That begs the question, why bother having rank 15 at all. If you include a new rank, people will expect it to be better than the previous rank, and preferably following the pattern of improvement of all previous ranks.

IE if going from rank 9 to rank 10 gives you 10% increased healing output (regardless of spellpower)... then people expect going from rank 14 to 15 to provide a similar increase.

With the proposed changes, going from 14 to 15 is almost moot... you could completely remove rank 15 and all we would lose is 250 healing or so per cast.

I would suggest increasing the base heal amount of rank 15. It would make rank 15 actually heal for more than rank 14. That or get rid of rank 15... and just make rank 14 the max rank. As it stands (on the ptr) there is no tangible difference between either one.

Slynk

< Death and Taxes >

Korgath

273. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:12:24 AM PDT

GC, this is also a nerf to resto druids in pvp when they are already the worst healers in arena. Is it really necessary?

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

274. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:13:17 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
You balance against a time when Rejuvenation was not used.

What does this even mean?

Q u o t e:
Druids are the only HoT class in the game so of course they are going to dominate fights that favor HoT healing. This is a content problem not a class problem. Until Priests get a viable HoT they will not dominate fights with auras. Why do people not get this? Are you so fixated on the Healing Meters that you are completely blind to the natural deficiencies of HoT’s? It's not that hard to understand. Predicable constant AoE damage is great for HoT’s and sucks for Direct Heals.

It is great for HoTs, you're correct. In fact, it has been too great for HoTs up to this point, as GC has made clear. Happily for druids, like the 4pcT8 nerf, this change is coming after the fact.

Q u o t e:
If you balance them in these encounters YOU BREAK HOT HEALING.

This change really only affects the fights where druids were too strong. HoT healing isn't broken because it will still perform 99% as well in the rest of the encounters in the game.

Nulasgalad

< Addicted >

Eonar

275. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:13:24 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Thanks for the clarification.

15 sec Rejuv was discussed relatively extensively in WotLK Beta, so people were under the assumption that its duration was intended, and 0.376 was the appropriate coefficient for that duration instead of 12 seconds.

.376 is the result of normalization. It is not specific to a 12 second hot.

A rejuv that last 12 seconds has a .376 per tick baseline coefficient
A rejuv that last 15 seconds has a .376 per tick baseline coefficient
A renew that last 15 seconds has a .376 per tick baseline coefficient
A renew that last a billion seconds has a .376 per tick baseline coefficient

It is the result of normalization (assuming 3 second interval ticks):

1.88 x duration / 15

implies

1.88 x 3 / 15 per tick.

=.376

Edit: The entire point of spell power coefficients is to normalize the rate at which spell power improves potency of spells. The normalization is sometimes based on cast time and sometimes based on the period over which the spell is delivered. Sometimes it's a mixture and sometimes spells break the general rules.

[ Post edited by Nulasgalad ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

276. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:15:38 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Can you tell me how much R13 is supposed to be penalized for downranking? It might make this make more sense to me.

I don't think you would be giving out a competetive advantage to us if you told us how this mechanism works at this time, if you haven't done so before.

I guess maybe I've been confused by the tooltips - I never did understand why sometimes it shows that a spell will heal for 1000 and it does, and somtimes it says it will heal for 2000 and it heals for 10,000.

Tealeaf, here is the formula for coefficient penalty for all spells that has been in effect for all of LK:

If caster level is less than max caster level, then the penalty = 1.0.
If caster level is at or greater than max caster level, then the penalty = (22 + max level - caster level) / 20.
The penalty is capped at 0. Max caster level per spell is also pretty inconsistent, but it's around 4 levels higher than the level at which you get the spell.

Basically, once the caster is 3 levels higher than the max cast level of the spell, the standard coefficient of the spell is multiplied by that penalty (losing 5% of the coefficient per level), with the coefficient reaching zero when the player is 22 levels higher than the max cast level.

For Rejuv, this makes the following table of coefficients for a level 80 player:

Rank 15: 0.376
Rank 14: 0.376
Rank 13: 0.376*0.75=0.282
Rank 12: 0.376*0.5=0.188
Rank 11: 0.376*0.35=0.1316
Rank 10: 0.376*0.25=0.094
Rank 9: 0.376*0=0
Rank 8 and lower: 0

As I said, the penalty is kind of an anachronism since the ranks all cost the same amount of mana now, but I can understand why you all might have expected rank 15 to jump in coefficient.

Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:
This is also why we just want to have one rank per character level in Cataclysm.

Huh? I thought it was [going to be] one rank per spell. Could you elaborate, if this isn't too much of a sidetrack?

Essentially there will be no ranks. Instead your spell will just grow every time you gain a level. The biggest difference you will notice is not having to train say rank 16 of Rejuv. Your spellbook would just say "Rejuvenation."

Q u o t e:
Where i think there is concern is that because the base value from rank 14 to 15 changes so little... that no matter what spellpower you have, the difference in output between rank 14 and 15 is tiny (58 healing per tick according to previous posts)

That begs the question, why bother having rank 15 at all. If you include a new rank, people will expect it to be better than the previous rank, and preferable following the pattern of improvement of all previous ranks.

It is better, it's just not better by much. The ranks grow very slowly as you approach max level in order to act as a brake for players gaining so much power through gear. Again, this is why we think ranks are just an outdated concept. You get a new rank but don't see a big improvement.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Brayne

Uther

277. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:16:47 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Are you sure?

(1690 / 15) * 12 = 1352.

???

Yeah i was wrong, just tested it. So this is what we are left with, the almight jump from rank 14 to rank 15, 5 levels and we get to heal for 58 more a tick.

Tempestmoon

< Phycodurus >

Silver Hand

278. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:17:20 AM PDT

The R14 -> R15 is working as intended. If you use a lower level druid (one at 75, for example) and test R13 and R14, you'll see an identical problem between R13 and R14. This is due to the downrank penalty, which kicks in after 10 levels, as I recall.

Rejuv Healing Per Tick: ( Base + ( Spellpower * Coefficient ) ) * ( ( Max ( Current Level - Level obtained, 10 ) - 10 ) * downrank penalty coefficient ) )

As long as a spell is within 10 levels of the level it was obtained, there's no downrank penalty. The Spellpower coefficient never changes. And so, the only difference one would expect is the base healing. This is why the downrank penalty, and then the mana cost normalization occurred -- lower rank spells scaled identically, but cost a lot less, so at moderate levels of spell-power they started to completely blow the highest rank spells away in terms of efficiency and effectiveness..

The sun may yet shine, but the storm is coming.

Etal

< Bloodmoon Chosen >

Argent Dawn

279. Re: 3.3 PTR Rejuv change 10/02/2009 10:20:25 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
What does this even mean?

I would expect that from you. It means that the comparison between 14 and 15 is invalid. It wasn't until level 15 that Druds started to really use the spell. This is for a few reasons, but aside from the Nourish and Swiftmend requirement it's become viable. Previous levels of the spell were not. Is a very bad comparison.

Q u o t e:
This change really only affects the fights where druids were too strong. HoT healing isn't broken because it will still perform 99% as well in the rest of the encounters in the game.

From your previous posts it's obvious you think Druids are too strong, because they can heal.

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