World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Healing Nerfs

Pirjo

< Shadows and Dust >

Ravenholdt

80. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:17:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
ALSO why is priest healing so inefficient compared to what the other healing classes can put out.(chain heal/rejuv spam / new op beacon)

holy concentration, surge of light

No more kings! Now I can boot the warrior giving battle shout and bless might!

Slinkyminx

< pN >

Frostmourne

81. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:18:27 PM PDT

Stop caring about meters. I try to get under the ret pallies if possible.

Mimiron hard mode is still my favorite WotLK encounter.

~Natori

Hoofz

< Sleepless Knights >

Bronzebeard

82. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:20:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
The point right now in hard modes, is its only hard for the healers. They have to heal like crazy to cover insane tank damage, raid heal and them self, all while managing the mana they have. A great healer can make or break a raid/group just based on their gear and skill.

However, healing in most cases is not fun. I feel when I heal on either this guy(rare) or my druid that I am playing an intense game of whack a mole. I rarely get to enjoy the fight, its all consisting of spamming heals everywhere.

To each his own. I find DPS very boring and not fun. I enjoy healing a hundred fold more than dpsing, and i actually get quite irritated when i am asked to do so. Sadly I AM a hybrid class so i do so anyway, but i don't like it.

Weezthejuice 80 holy pally
"If you're looking for that one thing that's going to get you a raid spot, I'd shoot for a reputation that you know what the blank you're doing and some good friends" - GC

Trinimus

< Barbarian Counsel >

Argent Dawn

83. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:20:41 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Where I will agree we need to improve healing in WoW is in relationship to how much damage the tank is taking (or even a teammate in PvP). Damage to health is too high in almost all scenarios, such that only the really big, really fast, or really broad (group-based) heals count for much. Things that are fun for a healer, such as trying to be mana-efficient or matching the right heal to the right damaged character go away when you're just spamming like mad. None of this should come as news to readers of this forum, because it's the kind of thing we've said before.

What I would like to see in Cataclysm is higher health pools but also lower heals (and tank avoidance) overall. Hopefully everyone won't be on the verge of almost dying, yet the risk of overhealing will be more real such that you can't just madly spam all of the time if you want to make it to the end of the encounter.

This is one of the biggest things I would love to see. Having played a healer, and now playing a tank, the ping pong game I witness in raids drives me to drink. When I need a new liver, I'm sending you guys the bill.

Qweefy

Thrall

84. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:21:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Where I will agree we need to improve healing in WoW is in relationship to how much damage the tank is taking (or even a teammate in PvP). Damage to health is too high in almost all scenarios, such that only the really big, really fast, or really broad (group-based) heals count for much. Things that are fun for a healer, such as trying to be mana-efficient or matching the right heal to the right damaged character go away when you're just spamming like mad. None of this should come as news to readers of this forum, because it's the kind of thing we've said before.

What I would like to see in Cataclysm is higher health pools but also lower heals (and tank avoidance) overall. Hopefully everyone won't be on the verge of almost dying, yet the risk of overhealing will be more real such that you can't just madly spam all of the time if you want to make it to the end of the encounter.

A similar thing is true for PvP. If health pools are larger, but heals smaller, then you see folks with health in between 100% and 0% more often.

Im really happy to see this post. Especially with the PvP part. I slightly disagree with the thinkless portion in relation to a Holy Priest and decisions we make choosing heals.

Generally speaking, damage to health ratio is so high that trying to heal a BG's or WG is alittle annoying at times. I would greatly appreciate the ability to MANAGE peoples health alittle more and not always having to try to jump in and save at the last second. People just die too quick to be saved alot of the time before i could even get a flash heal off.

EDIT: Sorry, posted on my Warrior.

[ Post edited by Qweefy ]

Sinnek

Cho'gall

85. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:23:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Healing has always been challenging and to some extent thankless in WoW. I don't think LK fundamentally changed that.

When I heal, I like to be challenged. Just buffing healing overall, or taking some of the challenge away from the healers, I don't think makes the game more fun for them. It might be fun for a week as everyone thanks you for doing such an amazing job all the time, but playing any game in godmode typically gets old after the initial rush.

What I mean is that one of the most boring experiences I can have in the game is to be a healer for a milk run in which a wipe is unlikely and nobody is going to take much damage. By contrast, you can still have fun in that situation as a DPS spec. You can see how fast the boss dies. You can see how much damage you can do. It can even be fun as a tank, because you can usually afford to drop some of your defenses in order to improve your dps and try and make the fight shorter. At the very least, you can try and see how much damage you can mitigate. It's possible to do some pulls and even weaker bosses with almost no incoming damage. All a healer can really do is try to heal as little or efficiently as possible, which really just means you're standing around a lot. Maybe you're tossing the occasional Wrath or SW:Pain or something, but that dps contribution is pretty trivial even compared to the trying-to-DPS-a-little tank.

Where I will agree we need to improve healing in WoW is in relationship to how much damage the tank is taking (or even a teammate in PvP). Damage to health is too high in almost all scenarios, such that only the really big, really fast, or really broad (group-based) heals count for much. Things that are fun for a healer, such as trying to be mana-efficient or matching the right heal to the right damaged character go away when you're just spamming like mad. None of this should come as news to readers of this forum, because it's the kind of thing we've said before.

What I would like to see in Cataclysm is higher health pools but also lower heals (and tank avoidance) overall. Hopefully everyone won't be on the verge of almost dying, yet the risk of overhealing will be more real such that you can't just madly spam all of the time if you want to make it to the end of the encounter.

A similar thing is true for PvP. If health pools are larger, but heals smaller, then you see folks with health in between 100% and 0% more often.

so you want everyone to have to roll a priest or druid pretty much

Torched

Crushridge

86. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:23:49 PM PDT

More health and smaller heals...

I see this going one of two ways...

1. The MT will be hit hard and often and you'll need 3-4 MT healers due to the smaller heals relative to his life pool.

2. The threat of MT dying will be extremely low and MT healing will be easy but raid damage will have to go way up to compensate.

Obviously one way favors more Holy Palies & Disc Priests vs raid healers. Or maybe each boss will alternate approaches, some need heavy MT healing, others raid healing. In which case you need to make ALL the healers more flexible on their single vs raid healing mechanics...

If you are looking for more "fun" for the healers you might look at Seal of Wisdom or Judgement type mechanics. Tossing out SOME dps to boost mana regen or even healing itself. Like the new Vampiric Embrace. Toss out a Mind Blast for some raid heals.

[ Post edited by Torched ]

Atreidies

< Blind Fate >

Norgannon

87. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:34:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Healing has always been challenging and to some extent thankless in WoW. I don't think LK fundamentally changed that.

When I heal, I like to be challenged. Just buffing healing overall, or taking some of the challenge away from the healers, I don't think makes the game more fun for them. It might be fun for a week as everyone thanks you for doing such an amazing job all the time, but playing any game in godmode typically gets old after the initial rush.

What I mean is that one of the most boring experiences I can have in the game is to be a healer for a milk run in which a wipe is unlikely and nobody is going to take much damage. By contrast, you can still have fun in that situation as a DPS spec. You can see how fast the boss dies. You can see how much damage you can do. It can even be fun as a tank, because you can usually afford to drop some of your defenses in order to improve your dps and try and make the fight shorter. At the very least, you can try and see how much damage you can mitigate. It's possible to do some pulls and even weaker bosses with almost no incoming damage. All a healer can really do is try to heal as little or efficiently as possible, which really just means you're standing around a lot. Maybe you're tossing the occasional Wrath or SW:Pain or something, but that dps contribution is pretty trivial even compared to the trying-to-DPS-a-little tank.

Where I will agree we need to improve healing in WoW is in relationship to how much damage the tank is taking (or even a teammate in PvP). Damage to health is too high in almost all scenarios, such that only the really big, really fast, or really broad (group-based) heals count for much. Things that are fun for a healer, such as trying to be mana-efficient or matching the right heal to the right damaged character go away when you're just spamming like mad. None of this should come as news to readers of this forum, because it's the kind of thing we've said before.

What I would like to see in Cataclysm is higher health pools but also lower heals (and tank avoidance) overall. Hopefully everyone won't be on the verge of almost dying, yet the risk of overhealing will be more real such that you can't just madly spam all of the time if you want to make it to the end of the encounter.

A similar thing is true for PvP. If health pools are larger, but heals smaller, then you see folks with health in between 100% and 0% more often.

Not to be rude here, but match what spell to what damage? I'm a pally man. What toolbox? Me gots 1 big heal that is like..... too big , and one wittle heals thats like..... too small. Beacon is ok, assuming the fight needs it, Sacred Shield is kind of sort of a little (teeny) bit of absorb.

Oh yeah, SS is being nerfed, so is aura mastery, and maybe even lay on hands. Ergo my 'toolbox' (as it were) is ever shrinking. I have 2 heals and a HOT......

And as far as you say for healing milk runs - its a milk run. DPS can snooze - why can't I? Tanks can use more DPS gear, but why can't I as a healer do some DPS too? OH, thats right, healers cannot DPS very good cause thats like.... bad, or something.

I have an idea! Ask us what we want as healers. This is a forum, is it not?

Healing isn't for everyone. You aren't always going to be celebrated the way the rogue on top of the damage meters is. But every good guild knows it rests on the ability of its healers. - Ghostcrawler

Shylena

< Singularity >

Skywall

88. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:35:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Healing has always been challenging and to some extent thankless in WoW. I don't think LK fundamentally changed that.

When I heal, I like to be challenged. Just buffing healing overall, or taking some of the challenge away from the healers, I don't think makes the game more fun for them. It might be fun for a week as everyone thanks you for doing such an amazing job all the time, but playing any game in godmode typically gets old after the initial rush.

What I mean is that one of the most boring experiences I can have in the game is to be a healer for a milk run in which a wipe is unlikely and nobody is going to take much damage. By contrast, you can still have fun in that situation as a DPS spec. You can see how fast the boss dies. You can see how much damage you can do. It can even be fun as a tank, because you can usually afford to drop some of your defenses in order to improve your dps and try and make the fight shorter. At the very least, you can try and see how much damage you can mitigate. It's possible to do some pulls and even weaker bosses with almost no incoming damage. All a healer can really do is try to heal as little or efficiently as possible, which really just means you're standing around a lot. Maybe you're tossing the occasional Wrath or SW:Pain or something, but that dps contribution is pretty trivial even compared to the trying-to-DPS-a-little tank.

Where I will agree we need to improve healing in WoW is in relationship to how much damage the tank is taking (or even a teammate in PvP). Damage to health is too high in almost all scenarios, such that only the really big, really fast, or really broad (group-based) heals count for much. Things that are fun for a healer, such as trying to be mana-efficient or matching the right heal to the right damaged character go away when you're just spamming like mad. None of this should come as news to readers of this forum, because it's the kind of thing we've said before.

What I would like to see in Cataclysm is higher health pools but also lower heals (and tank avoidance) overall. Hopefully everyone won't be on the verge of almost dying, yet the risk of overhealing will be more real such that you can't just madly spam all of the time if you want to make it to the end of the encounter.

A similar thing is true for PvP. If health pools are larger, but heals smaller, then you see folks with health in between 100% and 0% more often.

THIS - your communicating with us - is exactly what I most value in your contribution to this game.

PLEASE - do not underestimate the value we place on this type communication. It is a certainty that not all will ever agree with you.....or me....or anyone....on anything.

PLEASE - do not let that stop your communication like this.

Even though I still have issues with the decisions made in buffing others and giving our versatility to them and at the same time nerfing us yet again, I greatly appreciate your time and effort in communicating your reasoning and logic.

When you have time, if that time comes, please consider stating that logic and rationale for priests being so relatively weakened at this stage of the game, comparitively, even if you deny it is so. But if you do deny it is so, please explain why the record keeping web sites so starkly show druids and pallys totally dominating shamans and priests in ehps. It is such total domination that it is hard to understand why and how this is regarded as balanced.

[ Post edited by Shylena ]

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Qualified server transfer applications welcomed
You can apply and get a decision before transferring
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Stiyle

< Naughty >

Dath'Remar

89. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:38:08 PM PDT

Here's a suggestion, why not just eliminate the need for tanks and healers?

Like in Diablo you don't need a tank or healer you just get together with 5 friends and kill stuff.

Do you know why it's hard to find healer's and tanks? Because it's flat out boring. Ever notice that when you do find a tank, they usually leave after one run? (successful or not).. that's because the novelty of tanking wore off, they are bored and rather do something else.

This is sort of pushing it, but maybe the core mechanics of WoW needs to change. Maybe all dps heal themselves for a certain amount while in a raid so essentially you eliminate the need for a dedicated healer role.

Poena

< Shard >

Azjol-Nerub

90. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:38:51 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

A similar thing is true for PvP. If health pools are larger, but heals smaller, then you see folks with health in between 100% and 0% more often.

Then what's the point of being a healer in PvP? Already I feel like a waste as most of the time there is so little I can do to heal myself or my target. If you double our health but keep our heals the same, what is the point of being a healer? Why not roll DPS?

Diane

< Defenders of Infinit… >

Shattered Hand

91. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:43:23 PM PDT

Many of the things said in here is the reason I get frustrated with healing. Its either LAWL Easy or OMFG WTH spam fest.

Take regular 25 man ToC for instance, there is nothing really that difficult to heal through. Sure if your DPS is being stupid and standing in stuff it can be a bit more of a challenge, but in general I just toss a few HoTs and a Nourish and its GG. Then you move on to the Heroic versions and its OMFG Spamfest. You dont even really have time to think about what heal your using you just pray to god skill and enough experience makes you do whats needed to be done. If you make one mistake, say accidently hitting 1 instead of 2 on my keybindings, it can mean the differece between making it and wiping. DPS doesn't have this issue really. If a Rogue uses one more SS because they didn't see that 5th point coming the raid isn't suddenly going to wipe. Its just stressful, not what i would really call fun.

Personally the most fun I had healing was back in Vanilla. It was a great combo of healing/dispelling/cooldowns. TBC wasn't bad either but WotLK has felt like a completely different game from a healing standpoint. I always liked the mana regen aspect of the game. Its wasn't just about spamming heals and keeping people alive. Its was about keeping people alive without running out of mana, and DPS played a part in that too cause if they did stupid stuff they may not die, but it could result in the wipe because the healers just burnt too much mana up early on.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

92. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:43:45 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Just out of curiosity then, you're anticipating not a significant increase in damage output of players compared to the increase in HP as well? Does this mean that Boss-HP would be increasing at a similar rate, or are we expecting slightly longer PvE battles?

We like the current length of boss battles, understanding that there is some variation from encounter to encounter.

Q u o t e:
so you want everyone to have to roll a priest or druid pretty much

That sounds like a narrow-minded, "buff me" response. Healing with a shaman in LK is much more dynamic than in BC. You have a variety of spells and can shift between a few different styles. A shaman healing a tank (or anyone taking a lot of damage) isn't just spamming CH on everyone.

We think paladins would feel fine too if they really used their full arsenal. But since cost is almost irrelevant (you can afford the mana and can't afford to not have the big heal) and since Holy Light can be hasted so much and crits all the time, everything looks like a job for Holy Light. I think Beacon and Sacred Shield have done a lot for paladins and maybe there is room for one or two more heals, but I don't think the size of the toolbox is really the problem here. Druids have a big toolbox, yet some druids can go through a whole raid with almost nothing but Rejuv and Wild Growth. If we nerfed Holy Light -- hard -- then other paladin spells would look more attractive. But that would be a big change with a lot of ramifications, and not one we're going to make for 3.3.

Q u o t e:
And as far as you say for healing milk runs - its a milk run. DPS can snooze - why can't I? Tanks can use more DPS gear, but why can't I as a healer do some DPS too? OH, thats right, healers cannot DPS very good cause thats like.... bad, or something.

The DPS is still hitting buttons while they do easy content. Even if all they do is autoattack, they are seeing numbers fly up. A healer doing easy content is just standing there. But hey, if snoozing is what's fun for you, there is plenty of easy content available. I'm just saying we are unlikely to make healing easy or unstressful on the newer content (Icecrown in this case). We don't think it would be fun (and I say that as someone with a lot of healing experience).

The challenge of all of this comes in what one change does to everything else. For example, if you know the tank is unlikely to die in two hits, does that make healing feel less urgent and perhaps even boring? You may be playing better for not casting a heal that is just going to stomp on someone else's hot. You guys are coordinating and conserving mana. You're smart healers, right? But at the end of the day what that really means is that instead of casting a heal, you do nothing and just chill for a few seconds. Is doing nothing ever fun?

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Nuclayer

Shandris

93. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:44:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Then what's the point of being a healer in PvP? Already I feel like a waste as most of the time there is so little I can do to heal myself or my target. If you double our health but keep our heals the same, what is the point of being a healer? Why not roll DPS?

I totally agree here. Many times, I feel like my entire job is to heal myself and try to get away. I am not in the arena to do anything, I am just a target to be burned down. If I am on a 3s team and I die but the other healer dies too - many teams feel like its a win and this is where the real match begins. Its sad really.

Shylena

< Singularity >

Skywall

94. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:52:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Here's a suggestion, why not just eliminate the need for tanks and healers?

Like in Diablo you don't need a tank or healer you just get together with 5 friends and kill stuff.

Do you know why it's hard to find healer's and tanks? Because it's flat out boring. Ever notice that when you do find a tank, they usually leave after one run? (successful or not).. that's because the novelty of tanking wore off, they are bored and rather do something else.

This is sort of pushing it, but maybe the core mechanics of WoW needs to change. Maybe all dps heal themselves for a certain amount while in a raid so essentially you eliminate the need for a dedicated healer role.

Ya, lets just eliminate tanks and healers, because that makes it easier for dps.
I mean only dps matter.

And really, eliminate all dps except rogues.
I mean, only you matter.

I recruit good & motivated players who want to raid end game
Qualified server transfer applications welcomed
You can apply and get a decision before transferring
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Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

95. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 01:56:35 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
You have a variety of spells and can shift between a few different styles. A shaman healing a tank (or anyone taking a lot of damage) isn't just spamming CH on everyone.

But a paladin healing anyone is spamming Holy Light on everyone.

Q u o t e:
If we nerfed Holy Light -- hard -- then other paladin spells would look more attractive.

If you nerfed Holy Light -- hard -- then nothing a paladin has would look attractive (unless FoL paladins have become useful in the time in between when I logged off last night and now).

[ Post edited by Sonohako ]

Healybob

< Unyielding Phalanx >

Uldum

96. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 02:00:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

So blizzard have to design instances with out too! much killing damage because you cant heal stupid.

To true. These days healing is only as hard as the people you are healing. We run a melee heavy raid, our rogue and ret pally stay allive, our warrior, dk and thunderchicken dont, wy, becuase the rogue and pally are very aware, while the other get tunnel vision and die. Since we run 2 healers, me(priest) and a pally I dont heal stupid, ill throw a renew or flash heal on htem, but if they stay in the poo i let them die.
When someone dies of something stupid I say "Fire hot!" or "maybe if you get %@@* on you'll pull your head out of the boss' ass."
Healing in BC was harder than wotlk because the raids where harder. That being said, I dont want to go back to spammin CoH. That was boring.

Manjula

< Slack >

Tichondrius

97. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 02:01:48 PM PDT

The biggest cause of change when it comes to how a healer will perform in any given encounter is based solely on how said encounter is designed. Since Blizzard is constantly trying to make new and interesting encounters for every new tier of PvE, it means healers are going to go through a different method of healing in every tier of PvE. This leads to new and different balance issues. I don't think this is a bad thing. The issue, to me, stems from how long it takes for changes and fixes to be implemented to correct problems that healers, and all classes really, are having based on the newest tier of content.

Diane

< Defenders of Infinit… >

Shattered Hand

98. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 02:03:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

The DPS is still hitting buttons while they do easy content. Even if all they do is autoattack, they are seeing numbers fly up. A healer doing easy content is just standing there. But hey, if snoozing is what's fun for you, there is plenty of easy content available. I'm just saying we are unlikely to make healing easy or unstressful on the newer content (Icecrown in this case). We don't think it would be fun (and I say that as someone with a lot of healing experience).

The challenge of all of this comes in what one change does to everything else. For example, if you know the tank is unlikely to die in two hits, does that make healing feel less urgent and perhaps even boring? You may be playing better for not casting a heal that is just going to stomp on someone else's hot. You guys are coordinating and conserving mana. You're smart healers, right? But at the end of the day what that really means is that instead of casting a heal, you do nothing and just chill for a few seconds. Is doing nothing ever fun?

It depends on what doing nothing means really. If you mean standing still and literally doing nothing, then yeah that does get old. However if your not pushing buttons because its not needed and your conserving mana to get ready for that big blast of healing that is needed suddenly doing nothing becomes much more interesting. Also I think the game has gotten away from healers using there other tools in a significant way.

Trust me when I say I dont really wanna go back to the cleansing spamefest that MC and BWL could be at times, but in all honesty I rarely hit my remove curse/abolish poison button anymore. I think bringing things back in that makes use of these tools is a way to give healers something to do without really needing to OMFG spam heals. I realise certain classes have more of these type of things and maybe thats something that needs to be adjusted in the next expansion.

I'm not sure If I got my point across correctly but basically its come down to giving healers things that need to be done with there healing role other than just hitting the heal buttons.

Nopantspally

< Son of a Horde >

Uther

99. Re: Healing Nerfs - Stop it 10/28/2009 02:07:51 PM PDT

I would love to see a movement towards moving much of the damage of an encounter away from the tank and spread it out more amongst the raid.

Throwing out unstoppable damage through one tank and relying on a constant stream of heal spam and basically creating a single point of failure for the entire raid just sucks to me. If the tank dies, it's a wipe, sorry. Why not move boss fights more into a battle of attrition. The boss has to kill us all to win, not just kill the right one of us.

Add some more "hey dps guy, go stand in that fire, it increases your dps, but does damage to you in return" type stuff. Unavoidable damage to the raid, not just to the tank. The tank's job should be positioning, swapping, cooldowns for very infrequent bursts all while maintaining threat.

"Tank and spank" needs to diaf, for the most part.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING