With the advent of the hardmode system, I have seen the path to progression now goes through Achievements but I was wondering if we will ever see a raid again that requires:

A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a compelling storyline.

B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too for that matter.

C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far away.

D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear, not for the epeenery.

E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the "world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks not hours to kill him.

The real question is: Is this type of raid extinct or can we be surprised with maybe one or two raids that really feel like the old days of raiding where there was a sense of accomplishment and challenge?

To those "hard mode" advocates: I have no problem with hard modes, I am just asking if we can see a dungeon that doesn't contain gimmicky hard modes.

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Q u o t e:

there was a sense of accomplishment and challenge?

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OP has never done a hardmode

I don't think we will ever see a return to the hardcore elements of PVE that you saw in vanilla wow.

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Q u o t e:
With the advent of the hardmode system, I have seen the path to progression now goes through Achievements but I was wondering if we will ever see a raid again that requires:

A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a compelling storyline.

B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too for that matter.

C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far away.

D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear, not for the epeenery.

E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the "world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks not hours to kill him.

The real question is: Is this type of raid extinct or can we be surprised with maybe one or two raids that really feel like the old days of raiding where there was a sense of accomplishment and challenge?

To those "hard mode" advocates: I have no problem with hard modes, I am just asking if we can see a dungeon that doesn't contain gimmicky hard modes.

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No. For the love of god I never wanna see another raid like BWL. Wiping for weeks on the same boss and having your guild split up because of it was not fun. Take off your rose colored goggles.

faction champions takes a bit of CC... well unless you out gear it and just focus fire.

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Q u o t e:
Take off your rose colored goggles.

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Shut up. So tired of hearing this every time someone doesn't prefers one thing over another.

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Shut up. So tired of hearing this every time someone doesn't prefers one thing over another.

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Maybe because its true. There is no reason why anyone would want to go back to pre-bc. The game was horrible back then. Its all nostalgia. And people always make these "pre-bc guilds" then after a month of raiding level 60 content realise how boring and monontanus it is.

Basically blizzard has taken the "everyone deserves to see the content" stance for normal modes.

Hard modes could be at the insane level if blizzard really wanted them to be, but they aren't. Freya and Mimiron hard modes were awesome. WTB more of those.

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Q u o t e:


OP has never done a hardmode

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As good as it feels to kill a hardmode, it's cheapened by the fact that you facerolled the same boss on normal either last week or a couple hours previous. It just doesn't compare to killing a boss for the first time that was genuinely hard on his default setting.

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Q u o t e:
With the advent of the hardmode system, I have seen the path to progression now goes through Achievements but I was wondering if we will ever see a raid again that requires:

A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a compelling storyline.

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Attunements aren't really that big of a deal. Everyone ends up getting them eventually anyways or they're dropped and just serve as an annoyance in the meantime.

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Q u o t e:

B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too for that matter.

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Not likely. Blizzard's new philosophy is bring the player, not the class. *Needing* CC requires specific classes typically, and Blizzard wants to avoid the, "bring 3 mages = easy heroic" type of PvE encounters these days.

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Q u o t e:


C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far away.

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Not every raid is winged, even in WotLK. However, even linear instances should have teleports from now on.

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Q u o t e:

D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear, not for the epeenery.

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The reason why people ran BWL for gear is because %100 of your gear upgrades came from BWL. That's a bad thing. In WotLK, your BiS pieces typically come from the highest end raids, but you don't have to do %100 high end raids to get %100 of your upgrades, that's a good thing.

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Q u o t e:

E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the "world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks not hours to kill him.

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Most bosses in vanilla took weeks to kill because they were poorly tuned and buggy. Now most bosses are pretty polished and balanced at release. It's pretty obvious too that players are just plain better than they were during Vanilla WoW.

yep, the novelty of wiping a raid because a sheep breaks was lots of fun...

theres a difference between a challenge and the raid just being tedious.

these threads seem to be prompted by the few that either are, or pretend to be super hardcore and want a raid tailored to them that casuals simply cannot participate in. I presume to try to seperate themselves as better or more dedicated players.

old raids that took hours just to go through, where half way through you were trying to 35man a 40man raid(that 40 would probably wipe on, and 35 were basicly wasting their time) because people just had to leave, sending someone out to call in general to pick up a few odd players to fill in the raid, ect ect. thats not a challenge in game play, its a challenge of logistics of getting so many people in the same place at the same time for that long. And it wasnt realistic then, its not realistic now.

Nor is blizzard going to design a raid to cater to the few, when at this point the "casual" players probably vastly outnumber those willing to dedicate 4+ hours to a raid at a time with any reliability.

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A. "Kill this guy, get a quest item, kill this other guy" != "storyline".

B. No thanks. Unlike you I actually remember the trash pulls after Broodlord. They were horrible.

C. http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/fail-owned-maze-fail1.jpg

D. Handing epics to casuals was a stupid idea. Congratulations, this is the first and only good point you make.

E. No, actually, the learning curve for Nefarian was ridiculous. The fight was fun but you had to keep the same 40 people coming to raid for a month; any new person and they'd invariably screw it up. And you'd have to redo your entire raid composition if you got the wrong gate combo ("ok, it's red/black, everyone wipe and all warlocks leave group").

I don't want to see BWL again, and neither does anyone who actually did it.

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BWL was by far one of the best times I've ever had playing this game. While some of the trash was pretty brutal in there it was also fairly interesting and sparse and learning Nefarian is something I'll never forget.

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OP has never done a hardmode

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Hard Mode Shmard Mode. Who gives a crap. I'm 6/9 Ulduar Hard Modes and oddly enough 3/5 ToC Hard(which isn't nearly the difficulty of Uld) and I absolutely hate hard modes. I think they are the worst thing that ever happened to raiding. Are they challenging? Sure? Are they fun? Outside of Mimiron or Sarth 3D 10man no. Mimiron is fun because the fire makes the fight feel completely different. Raiding today has become a snooze fest where anyone can faceroll normal and hardmodes, while challenging just make the instance get stale at 2x the rate.

Raiding to me has lost it's epic feel. But I don't necessarily completely fault Blizzard. Site's like MMO-Champ, Wowhead, etc are part of the problem where they have completely loot lists, screenshots and basic strategies layed out before the patch leaves the PTR.

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Q u o t e:
A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a compelling storyline.

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Guess you didn't catch blizzard saying specificly that further raids will not have attunements anymore so that casual players will get their chance to see all the raid content.

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Q u o t e:
B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too for that matter.

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Thats still around at times. sure enough it was dead in Naxx but in ToC Faction Champs and some parts of Ulduar there is CC required.

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C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far away.

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Sure enough Icecrown will get that feeling?

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E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the "world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks not hours to kill him.

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Remember back in BC days when Kael'Thas was ridicuously hard? I remember those days when guilds would scream and argue with each other and eventually break up. Sure enough Blizz took some of that away while stil keeping it in hardmodes for the more elite/hardcore players so that way casuals will have a chance at downing them and not break up.

However a boss that solved that for about 3 weeks? was Algalon with his 2 hour timer limit before despawn for the week.

Reason why I didn't quote some parts of your statments is because I don't think their that much of an issue.

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I like how you're posting on a main to prove it...

Yeap, this is me calling BS on you.

And, again, no one wants a game that's a second job. Single encounters should never take a month of raiding 5 nights a week just to learn. That's design failure unless you feel like paying guildmates rent checks.

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You're replying to a Stabbymcbeal post. He does nothing but post attentionwhoring troll threads.