I don't see much point in making raids like how they used to be made in vanilla wow or any games that preceded wow. The vast majority of players are casuals so it is natural they make raids and the whole game geared towards casuals. Regardless, most hardcore raids from what I can tell only raid for the gear to show off in a big city or to pvp. Personally, blizzard should give out the same gear models with same color and all to both normal and heroic modes. Had blizzard made the dungeon armor the same as the raid gear in vanilla wow how many people would actually raid? There is no "snowflake" any more. Even back then how successful a guild or player was in raiding depends solely on how much time they could dedicate to raiding and had little to do with so call skill.

The only players that want to go back are the show offs that spend all their time in dalaran on their mounts by the flying mount platforming or hovering slightly above in dalaran. How many raiders truely raided vanilla wow raids for the sake of raiding? Players should not be rewarded based on how much time they can raid. Now that so call hardcore raiders aren't given exclusive access to raids and gear, a lot of these so call hardcore raiders are quitting the game or going casual, which is fine since there are plenty of casuals players who will replace them. Any way if you want hardcore I suggest you play another game with real skill like cs, chest, or some other morpg .

Posting in a Stabbymcbeal troll thread.

11/10 (extra point for the person who reported the original post).

blah trolled. ><

I only read the first page, but the biggest reason BWL-like instance will not be done again:

SUPPRESSION ROOM.

Done.

I'm actually a big fan of CC in raids, makes it more fun, makes people pay attention more than "AOE spamfest everything until its dead".

We just got to General last night, and were happily surprised when we had to use CC to pull his trash.

We hadn't used any CC in over 1.5 years - since doing our ZA bears.

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Q u o t e:




B. Ulduar trash when it was released. Too bad players cried too much so they nerfed it. Remember, it's the players who decide what they want in a game, blizzard just implements it.

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Nerf of the Vezax guards (ones beside Vezax on left and right) - the adds that went immune and summoned gignatic voidwalkers three times during three phases was annoying and I could not see anyone enjoying that.

BWL had cc?

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Q u o t e:


Exaggerate much?

MC was buggy when it was FIRST released as it was the FIRST raid ever in the game. However, one patch later the entire instance was fine. The sky was not falling.

BWL had ONE issue which was Vael and his lockout timer if you wiped. Tell me another boss in there that was broken to the point it was unbeatable?

AQ40 - C'Thun needed to be tuned. The rest of the instance was fine.

Naxx40 - 4 Horseman was hard but was beatable.

Where are all these "disasters" you are talking about?

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MC was called Molten Bore in vanilla for a reason. The raid design was just uninspiring. Lol shazzrah = no melee k thx. Ragnaros + melt weapon = more repair bills please. Domo = must have 4 mages or you're screwed. Garr = have a combination of 9 warriors (the only real tank at the time) and warlocks (only CC against adds).

The only disaster was BWL. Untested raid upon release, many bosses' skills did not work, and a guild got to Nef in like 1-2 days due to it (a guild named Fury did it). Then Blizzard fixed it, thus becoming really difficult, and Vael did have that Algalon lockout timer for a while.

AQ40's issues were similar to MC - raid design. Wipe on C'Thun = 10-minute run back? No dragons teleporting you? Bosses dropping the NR gear you needed to kill them? WTF?

Naxx40 was heralded as awesome due to boss mechanics and trash never respawning. Most bosses today use something from this instance. But Naxx10 and Naxx25 are almost the same design wise, and people call it a cakewalk from day 1 of it's introduction. Wonder why....

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Q u o t e:


Based on the points you provided, probably not.

A. Attunements tended to cause more frustration than benefit so we have aimed to put the story parts into optional quests and allow players to have easier access to the dungeons. I don't remember when heading to Onyxia anybody being excited to help someone do the attunement again.

B. Crowd control could be around, but it also is linked with trash that people tend to complain about when there is a decent amount of it. Several packs in Ulduar have CC-able mobs, do you want to triple the number of trash packs and their difficulty to make the CC more valued?

C. I'm not sure I understand this one. There were a number of complaints over the boring linear part of the old dungeons, but we do want the dungeons to feel epic and I think a place like Ulduar accomplished that -- getting to Yogg doesn't feel like a short hop.

D. The gear tends to look similar as there is more of it and more people running raids now that they are more accessible. A lot of players only do things when there is a reward so it seems like a lot of people go where the gear goes.

E. I don't want to blabber on here, but bugs often had to do with the long kill times back then which we have avoided through better testing methods. Yogg-0 is still no easy feat though and that took quite awhile for even the top guilds in the world to pull off.

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A. Attunements have an impact on server stability as well. Luckily as in your example, the onyxia attunement is just as required as is grinding sons of hodir rep, which frankly is a larger time sink. Helm and leg enchants took all of 30 minuets in vanilla as well. Was onyxia THAT bad? Really, it's a single boss instance which required minimal effort if you just pugged a group together.

B. He could of easily been referring to raid CC, such as Naxx40 gothik or grand widow (all be it more of a snare).

C. I think he means a raid where you see a storyline progression as the instance goes along as you make your way through the nasty brain childs of Blizzards finest. Not: "Oh look an instance with wings, lets try the blue one first" ... Blackwing for example you moved through nefarions lair, and with the red shard quest were even on a time frame.

D. Ten achievement points don't cut it, sorry. From those I've talked to and massive threads on these forums, many hardcores and even average raiders such as myself are ok with puggable raids and gear spread around, but when the model is just some recolored repeat why bother? Not to be a broken record but the old tier at least had a look to it, which is the achievement. Not 10 Useless points.

E. Artificially difficult fights based on time restrictions like Algalon, or farming other hardmodes which give actual gear was a deterrent for lots looking at one light. Does a title help my guild progress more than a hardmode item off say freya 3?

Personally, I think the end bosses will never be so epic again due to the increase of skill. Blackwing days people were just starting to catch on to theorycrafting and now the big power guilds who take raiding seriously will speed through it, no question.

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Q u o t e:
With the advent of the hardmode system, I have seen the path to progression now goes through Achievements but I was wondering if we will ever see a raid again that requires:

A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a compelling storyline.

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BWL did not have a compelling attunement. In fact it wasn't even designed with one originally, it was tacked on when they realized making 40 people zerg through BRD to get to MC wasn't fun anymore after the first couple times and was ruining the rest of their max level 5 man dungeons in the process (people use to 20 man Scholomance rather than actually learn the dungeon or how to operate in a 5 man group, even).

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Q u o t e:
B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too for that matter.

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BWL really required no more CC than Ulduar trash before Vezax or Freya.

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Q u o t e:
C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far away.

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Try running to Yogg next time you wipe instead of teleporting. And don't be surprised if your raid leader kicks you for wasting everyone's time. Ulduar is actually very massive, bigger than BWL. The difference is a lack of a 30 minute corpse run, for which I'm sure 99% of the people are grateful.

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Q u o t e:
D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear, not for the epeenery.

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The gear WAS the "epeenery". You're a moron or you didn't raid back then if you don't realize that.

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Q u o t e:
E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the "world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks not hours to kill him.

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Link me your armory with your Algalon and Yogg+0 kills that you got a week after the zone came out. No? How about Anub heroic. I thought not.

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Q u o t e:
The real question is: Is this type of raid extinct or can we be surprised with maybe one or two raids that really feel like the old days of raiding where there was a sense of accomplishment and challenge?

To those "hard mode" advocates: I have no problem with hard modes, I am just asking if we can see a dungeon that doesn't contain gimmicky hard modes.

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What if Ragnaros did 20% less damage and didn't knock back your tanks. Would adding those things back be "gimmicky"? What if Onyxia didn't deep breath or fear, and those were added for a "hard mode", would those mechanics suddenly become "gimmicks"? Granted, in Ulduar, some of the hard modes seemed "gimmicky" or tacked-on, especially if you included the achievements that only existed for the meta and didn't give new loot, but by having the hard modes in a separate zone like ToC, that problem is solved. Northrend beasts coming out every 3 minutes regardless of your status on the previous mob isn't a "gimmick", it's part of the fight that acts as an enrage timer to prevent you from stacking healers to overcome the massive damage they deal to the tanks.

Just a general thing I'm putting out there.

The average skill of aplayer has not increased. Having pugged many raids with raiders of various skill and gear level, I cannot say that the average player is good at this game. Yea there's the 25-100 (depending on server size) skilled, hardcore players on your server, but the rest are generally crap.
I'm in a guild where we have 5, maybe 10, skilled raiders, the rest can be easily carried as they don't have to move or swap targets for 90% of fights. Fire = bad so move IS NOT a skilled concept. I could teach a 3 year old how to press 1 over and over (Hunters now have a 10 second shot rotation) and move out of a fire when it surrounds my character in the middle of the screen. While it may not be RuneScape, right click and AFK, it isn't all that hard.

I consider myself an average raider, but it amazes me how so many people cannot be bothered learning fights, can't understand simple concepts and just plain fail. I was in a pug for OS +3D (25 man zerg attempt) about 3 months back, yea we had no hope but not the point. These were some of the top raiders on the server... Over 10 people got hit by every firewall, every time for over an hour. Is that skilled?


Yea I know we won't see challenging raids (yea I know there's Yogg+0 and Algalon, but be serious here), and everyone will say go to PvP for that (LUL zerg fest is skilled now?), but can we make general raids funner, not harder but more engaging? NOBODY likes the stand still and move for fire fights, seriously they are boring and repetitive. Faction Champion's is my favourite fight (in 10 man), it's FUN, it's ENGAGING and it's not a stand-still, shoot 1 target fight. Yea, it requires me to use skills I never use in PvE, wow disengage + frost trap, so odd eh... But it's unique and was a great addition.


Anyway, trolls and elitists, quote and flame away. Don't care and will not be replying to you unless you provide a somewhat valid arguement.

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Q u o t e:
A. Attunements have an impact on server stability as well. Luckily as in your example, the onyxia attunement is just as required as is grinding sons of hodir rep, which frankly is a larger time sink. Helm and leg enchants took all of 30 minuets in vanilla as well. Was onyxia THAT bad? Really, it's a single boss instance which required minimal effort if you just pugged a group together.

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Ony attunement sucked. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand how horrible it actually was.

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Q u o t e:
B. He could of easily been referring to raid CC, such as Naxx40 gothik or grand widow (all be it more of a snare).

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I would not be opposed to more pulls requiring some form of CC. It adds a different dynamic.

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Q u o t e:
C. I think he means a raid where you see a storyline progression as the instance goes along as you make your way through the nasty brain childs of Blizzards finest. Not: "Oh look an instance with wings, lets try the blue one first" ... Blackwing for example you moved through nefarions lair, and with the red shard quest were even on a time frame.

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This would be cool.

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Q u o t e:
D. Ten achievement points don't cut it, sorry. From those I've talked to and massive threads on these forums, many hardcores and even average raiders such as myself are ok with puggable raids and gear spread around, but when the model is just some recolored repeat why bother? Not to be a broken record but the old tier at least had a look to it, which is the achievement. Not 10 Useless points.

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There is something to be said for unique art on items. If I'm going to be wandering around in public I care what people see on me. Some people even have sets they wear that are sub-optimal just because they look pretty.

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Q u o t e:
E. Artificially difficult fights based on time restrictions like Algalon, or farming other hardmodes which give actual gear was a deterrent for lots looking at one light. Does a title help my guild progress more than a hardmode item off say freya 3?

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All fights have an aritifical difficutly level. It just depends what is causing it.

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Q u o t e:
Personally, I think the end bosses will never be so epic again due to the increase of skill. Blackwing days people were just starting to catch on to theorycrafting and now the big power guilds who take raiding seriously will speed through it, no question.

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This. People are much, much, much better than they were 'back in the day'. A lot of people that keep referencing 'back in the day' don't realize that comparitively speaking the fights are probably about the same difficutly or a little lower. It's just your skill that has gotten much higher since then. This means when you look at the fight, you think it's easy. But if you had looked at the same fight 2 or 3 years ago, you might not be thinking that.

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Q u o t e:


A. Attunements have an impact on server stability as well. Luckily as in your example, the onyxia attunement is just as required as is grinding sons of hodir rep, which frankly is a larger time sink. Helm and leg enchants took all of 30 minuets in vanilla as well. Was onyxia THAT bad? Really, it's a single boss instance which required minimal effort if you just pugged a group together.

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You never did the horde attunement line did you? There is no "minimal" about it. Only thing worse was the original incarnation of the horde shaman water totem quest. :P

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Q u o t e:
B. He could of easily been referring to raid CC, such as Naxx40 gothik or grand widow (all be it more of a snare).

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You mean like faction champions?

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Q u o t e:
C. I think he means a raid where you see a storyline progression as the instance goes along as you make your way through the nasty brain childs of Blizzards finest. Not: "Oh look an instance with wings, lets try the blue one first" ... Blackwing for example you moved through nefarions lair, and with the red shard quest were even on a time frame.

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The 2 raids with wings atm are naxx and ulduar. As far as design goes, naxx hasn't changed at all since vanilla, and back then it was hailed as one of the best instances ever created, so you obviously must be referring to ulduar. Personally, I love the design of ulduar. Blizzard did a good job of incorporating lore with each of the bosses and making the design make sense (4 keepers surrounding an imprisoned yogg)

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Q u o t e:
D. Ten achievement points don't cut it, sorry. From those I've talked to and massive threads on these forums, many hardcores and even average raiders such as myself are ok with puggable raids and gear spread around, but when the model is just some recolored repeat why bother? Not to be a broken record but the old tier at least had a look to it, which is the achievement. Not 10 Useless points.

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I guess this begs the question: why do you raid? I personally raid for the experience and people, not for the gear, so I don't care when I see other people running around in stuff that looks like me.

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Q u o t e:
E. Artificially difficult fights based on time restrictions like Algalon, or farming other hardmodes which give actual gear was a deterrent for lots looking at one light. Does a title help my guild progress more than a hardmode item off say freya 3?

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You pretty much answered your own question with the next line. If blizzard were to create a level 60 vanilla server with pre-2.0 talents & such and give us premade 60's with various green/blue gear (no epics or anything from raid instances), pugs would easily be able to down her, whereas guilds back in the day took weeks to learn her. The overall playerbase has gotten smarter, so artificial difficulty methods such as time restrictions or attempt limits are almost required.

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You're loling because you didn't play in classic WoW and/or have suffered amnesia, possibly?

What's seriously broken/bugged in TotC? What was seriously broken/bugged in Ulduar?

Not much, that's for sure. Whereas MC? BWL? AQ40? Naxx40? They were bloody disasters. MC had such huge bugs that it was literally impossible to defeat certain encounters for several weeks, if not months. BWL had a gigantic array of raid-wiping bugs that only gradually got fixed. AQ40 likewise.

So what are you trying to say, even? WoW still has bugs sometimes. Yes, it does. Does it have anywhere NEAR the number or seriousness of bugs that it did in classic? Not remotely.

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molten bore was the first raid, it was supposed to be terrible. BWL was the trash one, and it got fixed. AQ40 was fine other then gear and C'thun, and Naxx 40 was never nerfed or buffed, yet is regarded as their best piece of work.

if you seriously think ulduar release was "fine" you obviously don't remember all the bugs that carried over from PTR. not even going to touch it because it's quite a big ilst. week 1 of TotC icehowl bugged out and sat in his frost breath animation from 60% to dead in a pug of mine, doing no damage. he did it again in another run. valkyr's didn't even use their constant aoe until a hotfix.

not going to touch BC's either, because basically anyone who raided at all can name alot of stupidity done with those raids, be it bugs or just bad design.

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Q u o t e:


You never did the horde attunement line did you? There is no "minimal" about it. Only thing worse was the original incarnation of the horde shaman water totem quest. :P

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LFM healer Warlord Command.... The most stupid quest ever in this game... the OP clearly never did it if he thinks it was a good idea.

Edit : Or he did it at the end of vanilla after LBRS nerfs and DM/BG items trivialising content.

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Q u o t e:

A. Attunements tended to cause more frustration than benefit so we have aimed to put the story parts into optional quests and allow players to have easier access to the dungeons. I don't remember when heading to Onyxia anybody being excited to help someone do the attunement again.

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To this day, the only item I have ever ninja'd was the blood from the general in (upper?) black rock spire. I had quested all day to get the attunement, and I was so tired and cranky. Guilt still racks my conscious.
Thank you for no attunement.