World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Two minute buffs need changed!

Bearlizion

Stormrage

0. Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:05:46 AM PDT

ToC fights seem to me to strengthen the point that Battle/Commanding/Horn of Winter/etc all need a longer duration, and even a different application method.

It's a complete annoyance and an innefficient means to applying a buff. Let us use 30 minute castable buffs like most other raid buffs. It's not much fun having to waste a GCD to apply Commanding every 2 minutes in 10 ToC (or the like) when half of the dps/heals is out of range anyhow.

What is the big deal if these buffs last 30 minutes? What is the big deal if they are castable buffs as opposed to shouts? What is the big deal if they don't cost rage? Is anyone really going to get their panties in a bunch over this?

Comon devs, the intro in 5 man H ToC takes longer to complete than the 2 minute buffs last (Yeah, I know, we are mounted, but it's the principle).

If anyone is opposed to this, I would like to hear some valid reasoning as to why.
If you are in favor, please /sign.

Thank You

Tulion

< Shattered Oath >

Emerald Dream

1. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:15:11 AM PDT

I've never really understood why they upped Paladin blessings from 5 minutes regular/10 minutes greater to 10 minutes regular/30 minutes greater, but they left your shouts alone at 2 minutes (3 if glyphed). Granted you only have to cast your ability once and everyone within the range gets it...but I would also hate having to drop what I was doing and recast that every 2-3 minutes. It's just an annoyance, and is completely unnecessary.

ɹỊɐ-ləq pəllɐɔ uʍoʇ ɐ ɟo əɔuỊɹd əɥʇ əɯɐɔəq I ʍoɥ noʎ lləʇ ll‚l
əɹəɥʇ ʇɥნỊɹ ʇỊs ʇsnỊ əʇnuỊɯ ɐ əʞɐʇ oʇ əʞỊl p‚I puɐ
uʍop əpỊsdn pəuɹnʇ ´pəddỊlɟ ʇoნ əɟỊl
ʎɯ ʍoɥ ʇnoqɐ llɐ ʎɹoʇs ɐ sỊ sỊɥʇ ʍoN

Bubtama

< Framing Armageddon >

Eitrigg

2. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:20:44 AM PDT

I'd love longer shouts, but I am happy with 6min CommShout (talented/glyphed). I'm still used to hitting it every so often, then I realize "..it had 3minutes left."

=P

Bearlizion

Stormrage

3. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:41:15 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I'd love longer shouts, but I am happy with 6min CommShout (talented/glyphed). I'm still used to hitting it every so often, then I realize "..it had 3minutes left."

=P

So how are you handling the range problems in fights where half of the raid is out of range?
Take the Icehowl fight for example.

Menelly

< Novus Chalybs >

Arygos

4. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:43:29 AM PDT

Seems like a really simple quality of life buff. I'd like to see it happen too.

Menelly - 80 BE Pally ░ Christinelia - 80 Undead Priest ░ Niccì - 80 BE Mage ░
Krystee - 76 Undead Warlock ░ Folara - 71 NE Druid ░ Delikate - 70 Orc DK ░ Daintee - 63 Orc Hunter ░

Varuis

Frostmourne

5. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:50:27 AM PDT

6 minutes isn't *bad*, but honestly, put a 20 second cooldown on comm/battle shout, remove the cost and make it generate 10 rage, separate cooldowns of course.

sounds odd, but you get into a habit of refreshing it every cooldown, much like i do with horn, or a any ele/resto shaman does with water shield (i had people in heroic groups asking me to stop spamming WS on my resto shaman, since it got to the point where i did it every 5-6 seconds without realizing...)

Darksoldíer

< AQUA FAN CLUB >

Dunemaul

6. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 10:54:41 AM PDT

Should the duration be increased? Hell yeah.

Does Blizzard think it's fine as is? Pretty much.

/sadpandaface

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dunemaul&n=Buddypaladin

Komaki

< Moxie >

Executus

7. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:07:01 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
6 minutes isn't *bad*, but honestly, put a 20 second cooldown on comm/battle shout, remove the cost and make it generate 10 rage, separate cooldowns of course.

sounds odd, but you get into a habit of refreshing it every cooldown, much like i do with horn, or a any ele/resto shaman does with water shield (i had people in heroic groups asking me to stop spamming WS on my resto shaman, since it got to the point where i did it every 5-6 seconds without realizing...)

^ This. Making Horn of Winter runic power-free and making it generate RP was a huge Quality of Life buff. I cast it quite a bit without realizing it these days.

Carrotteets

< Gentlemens Club >

Korgath

8. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:16:35 AM PDT

Shouts should last as long as Blessings. There really is no good reason why they should not. I can see if Shouts were the only buff that stacked with like buffs or if Shouts gave a tremendous boost to warrant their short durations, but they aren't and they don't. I argued the same thing back in Vanilla when it came to Shaman totems vs. Paladin Auras + Blessings which were superior (even more so now than before).

Bearlizion

Stormrage

9. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:27:42 AM PDT

Not only should they be as long as blessings....they should get applied in the same fashion to avoid range issues and such.

Carrotteets

< Gentlemens Club >

Korgath

10. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:35:13 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Not only should they be as long as blessings....they should get applied in the same fashion to avoid range issues and such.

Yeah. The same problem can be had with totems as well. The range restrictions on these abilities/mechanics don't make sense. Basically only the melee is ever going to get Shouts rebuffing on fights longer than 2 minutes which means your ranged which is going to be sustaining AE damage continually almost always and generally that is spread out is going to be missing Commanding (because let's be honest Battle Shout is stupid when you have enough Pallies).

Severen

< Tiny Green Ragdoll >

Icecrown

11. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:42:16 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
If anyone is opposed to this, I would like to hear some valid reasoning as to why.
If you are in favor, please /sign.

Valid reasoning.
Shouts are not targeted buffs. You cast it, it's done.
Your armory shows that you never tanked back in the day, back when paladins spent the majority of an instance casting blessings on 40 people. That took time, a lot of time, and the changes to thier blessings were warranted.

Shouts have always been an offensive move, like many other warrior abilities. You yell "RAWR!" and your target gets demoralized, or your allies get pumped up, it's part of the class, and part of what makes warriors more fun to play than other tank classes. They require a bit more paying attention.

1 GCD every 2 minutes? Doubtful that is a make or break deal on threat over the course of a fight.

Keep complaining though, and Blizzard will eventually cave in and make the game easier for you.

Carrotteets

< Gentlemens Club >

Korgath

12. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:49:47 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Shouts have always been an offensive move, like many other warrior abilities. You yell "RAWR!" and your target gets demoralized, or your allies get pumped up, it's part of the class, and part of what makes warriors more fun to play than other tank classes. They require a bit more paying attention.

1 GCD every 2 minutes? Doubtful that is a make or break deal on threat over the course of a fight.

Keep complaining though, and Blizzard will eventually cave in and make the game easier for you.

Offensive? What the hell are you talking about. Yes thank you for the lore and reality evaluation of an ability in game that is not a reactive ability but a proactive one. Really and truly, there doesn't even need to ever be a duration on buffs of any sort. They are an archaic concept from past MMOs.

Right, it isn't going to make or break anything changing it. It will be more convenient, much of like why Paladins got changed. It was a stupid burden that was detrimental to gameplay.

Easier? This coming from a Paladin who can macro their entire cast sequence almost into 2 buttons? Please. This isn't about being easier but more enjoyable. This is a game, it should be fun. When there is something that isn't fun or annoying, players speak up. This is a valid point and not everything has to be completely about "whether or not or how much of a performance increase it is" to warrant the change.

How about a little consideration for a player? This concept you know is sort of radical and overlooked which is the reason why there aren't as many Protection Paladins or Feral Druids as other tanks because their gameplay style for most players sucks and everything seems like an after thought.

Have a nice day.

Varuis

Frostmourne

13. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:52:05 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Valid reasoning.
Shouts are not targeted buffs. You cast it, it's done.
Your armory shows that you never tanked back in the day, back when paladins spent the majority of an instance casting blessings on 40 people. That took time, a lot of time, and the changes to thier blessings were warranted.

Shouts have always been an offensive move, like many other warrior abilities. You yell "RAWR!" and your target gets demoralized, or your allies get pumped up, it's part of the class, and part of what makes warriors more fun to play than other tank classes. They require a bit more paying attention.

1 GCD every 2 minutes? Doubtful that is a make or break deal on threat over the course of a fight.

Keep complaining though, and Blizzard will eventually cave in and make the game easier for you.

did you ever in you play time complain about 30 second edit: Seals? they're the same thing in essence, your "valid Reasoning" is basically because it's AoE and paladins back in the day had to constantly buff.
since that;s your viewpoint, make auras last 2 minutes, and cost 20% of your mana, but not be castable out of combat without using DP first.

[ Post edited by Varuis ]

Darielle

< is Being Carried >

Tanaris

14. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:54:39 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Offensive? What the hell are you talking about. Yes thank you for the lore and reality evaluation of an ability in game that is not a reactive ability but a proactive one. Really and truly, there doesn't even need to ever be a duration on buffs of any sort. They are an archaic concept from past MMOs.

Right, it isn't going to make or break anything changing it. It will be more convenient, much of like why Paladins got changed. It was a stupid burden that was detrimental to gameplay.

Easier? This coming from a Paladin who can macro their entire cast sequence almost into 2 buttons? Please. This isn't about being easier but more enjoyable. This is a game, it should be fun. When there is something that isn't fun or annoying, players speak up. This is a valid point and not everything has to be completely about "whether or not or how much of a performance increase it is" to warrant the change.

How about a little consideration for a player? This concept you know is sort of radical and overlooked which is the reason why there aren't as many Protection Paladins or Feral Druids as other tanks because their gameplay style for most players sucks and everything seems like an after thought.

Have a nice day.

To be fair, if while keeping shouts up, dps/tps was the same across the board in comparison to other classes etc., shouts could in fact pretty much be for the most part "flavour" where some people like it for the RARRGHBLARRGH aspect and some people will hate it for the "Damn I gotta press this button every 2 mins" aspect.

Disclaimer: That had nothing to do with whether shouts should be changed or not.

[ Post edited by Darielle ]

Loot follows the Law of Inverse Need - The more you need an item, the less likely it is to drop. The corollary is what you need is guaranteed to drop when you are not in the group.

\o/ EmoBear

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

15. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 11:55:46 AM PDT

With the paladin buffs, resources are never an issue. You generally don't have to worry about renewing the buff when it falls off because you'll have enough mana unless you're near the end of the fight or something has gone wrong. For that reason it felt like just a hassle to have to renew them and we ultimately increased the durations.

With warrior shouts, the intent is that the resources do matter. You might not have enough rage at any given moment and part of the skill required in playing a warrior is making sure you have enough resources to both shout and do your other damage.

I can appreciate that that design might not be particularly compelling, but I'm not sure the solution is to just let shouts last forever. I think Horn of Winter might actually be a stronger design in that sense. Imagine (I am arm waving for a moment) that Battle Shout and Commanding Shout didn't cost any rage and in fact gave you rage, but were on a cooldown. Then using the shouts might become a more interesting choice -- you'd want to use them at moments when you're rage-starved and generally not when you have a full bar. However, you'd also want to keep them going because of their buff so you couldn't neglect to use them too often either. A challenge of playing the class / a test of your skill would be to shout at the right moment to keep the buff up but also make sure you earn the rage when you most needed it.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Rowanna

Shandris

18. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 12:02:14 PM PDT

I know shouting IRL gives me more rage.

Nasgrim

< Divine Twilight >

Llane

19. Re: Two minute buffs need changed! 09/03/2009 12:02:15 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
With the paladin buffs, resources are never an issue. You generally don't have to worry about renewing the buff when it falls off because you'll have enough mana unless you're near the end of the fight or something has gone wrong. For that reason it felt like just a hassle to have to renew them and we ultimately increased the durations.

With warrior shouts, the intent is that the resources do matter. You might not have enough rage at any given moment and part of the skill required in playing a warrior is making sure you have enough resources to both shout and do your other damage.

I can appreciate that that design might not be particularly compelling, but I'm not sure the solution is to just let shouts last forever. I think Horn of Winter might actually be a stronger design in that sense. Imagine (I am arm waving for a moment) that Battle Shout and Commanding Shout didn't cost any rage and in fact gave you rage, but were on a cooldown. Then using the shouts might become a more interesting choice -- you'd want to use them at moments when you're rage-starved and generally not when you have a full bar. However, you'd also want to keep them going because of their buff so you couldn't neglect to use them too often either. A challenge of playing the class / a test of your skill would be to shout at the right moment to keep the buff up but also make sure you earn the rage when you most needed it.

Giving rage would make them cool, right now they aren't cool.

Make it so.

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