World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Can Rogues Get some Reasoning

Itrapirun

< Rogues take zero ski… >

Arthas

41. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 07:46:04 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Blast wave, Dragon Breath, Cone of cold, Imp Blizzard, Thunderstorm, Typhoon, Dececration, Holy wrath are all aoe abilitys with added on utilities. Its not my fault that people don't spec, or don't like them.

Mages who speced AoE could probably slaughter Rogue AoE, but they dont spec it.

Ok, FoK may need a Damage Decrease, but the gutting of PvE throwing spec i think is completely uncalled for.

Lmao all of them have a CD cept blizzard and Dececration doesnt do dmg. Nice try though. Spec aoe as a mage?What would this spec consist of? So another point is mages have to spec to do aoe but a reg combat or mut spec rogue can speam FoN for top dps?

Haugus

< Dopes >

Nordrassil

42. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 07:50:24 AM PDT

Bad whiny Rogues are bad and whiny.

who'd a thunk it.

DoTs are like STDs, just because the person that gave you them dies it doesn't mean your cured.

Rexxaimaku

Moon Guard

43. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 07:56:19 AM PDT

I'm really going out on a limb here, but I am guessing that if they nerfed the damage by 30%, the reason for them nerfing it was because they thought the damage was 30% too high?

I dunno, just a guess.

Markee

< Eastern Mayhem >

Moonrunner

44. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:02:06 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
its called V-A-N-I-S-H

I lol'd

Ciarlin

< Amaranthian >

Arathor

45. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:03:50 AM PDT

I love the sheer number of spiteful people on these forums.

ps: The FoK nerf was fine and most rogues don't really care. The interrupt could have just been pushed deeper into combat to kill the gimmick spec but we'll get over it.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

46. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:27:17 AM PDT

It's hard for me to imagine this is really out of the blue.

We sat on a change for awhile because we hoped FoK spam was a flavor-of-the-month thing. We thought there was a chance the community would come up with a way to counter it, and since it's pretty much a one-trick pony, there would be no reason to keep trying it. The community absolutely comes up with counters on its own -- the answer to every new strategy should not immediately be for us to nerf it. We also hoped the resilience changes would chill out the damage enough that rogues would stop pursuing FoK spam. That doesn't seem to be happening.

It is a nerf in PvE, but honestly it's probably a nerf that was also needed. We wanted to give rogues some AE damage, and we were okay with the big numbers for a long time because they were big when fights were short, but not as good over longer AE fights. (Protip: AE doesn't just equal trash these days.) Few people would argue that rogue single-target dps on most fights isn't amazing ("jaw-dropping"? ;) ). As long as rogues can still contribute meaningfully to AE fights, which they will be able to do, they shouldn't be in any danger of being sidelined.

It's possible some select fights, notably Yogg 0, may be too difficult without the interrupt, but the encounter designers are prepared to make changes accordingly, and everyone will have access to better gear in the new raid tier anyway.

I asked a rogue in our guild if she thought Blizzard would nerf Fan. She said "They probably need to, but it was fun while it lasted."

The greatest casualty is probably the loss of so many FoKing puns.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Minnia

< Rawr vs Meow >

Doomhammer

47. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:29:44 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I asked a rogue in our guild if she thought Blizzard would nerf Fan. She said "They probably need to, but it was fun while it lasted."

But everyone says you don't play this game GC :(

I so confused!!

Kerberus

Whisperwind

48. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:30:22 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
It's hard for me to imagine this is really out of the blue.

For most rogues its not that FoK is getting nerfed, but more the fact that its a whooping 30% nerf.

I don't believe there is essentially something wrong with FoK spam being FotM, as long as that "FotM style" also punishes the rogue for it when used at the wrong time.

But this is a huge nerf to rogue AOE capeabilities (obviously). What led you to 30%? Why not 20%? 15%? Can you give some reasoning for the huge number?

.oO(On a sidenote i like the interrupt nerf to the FoK talent in combat. I was long overdue)

If this nerf WAS purely for the intention of nerfing PvP, i say that you should have nerfed FoK applying poisons instead, and i say this as a druid who can even dispel poisons. Even if FoK does "high" damage in PvP, if it didn't apply Wound Poison or Cripling Poison (or in some cases even Mind-Numbering Poison depending on what the rogue picks for Deadly Brew) it would be much more manageable.

[ Post edited by Kerberus ]

Treehuggin

< Relinquish >

Bloodhoof

49. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:31:31 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

For most rogues its not that FoK is getting nerfed, but more the fact that its a whooping 30% nerf.

The same exact number they chose when nerfing volley. Oh I get it, nerfing hunters by 30% is okay but is absurd to do to rogues.

80 Holy Paladin; 80 Resto/Balance Druid; 80 Surv Hunter; 73 Resto Shaman; 72 Shadow Priest; 70 Prot Warrior; 70 Frost Mage

Minnia

< Rawr vs Meow >

Doomhammer

50. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:31:34 AM PDT

Volley was nerfed by the exact same % and I would say that FoK did more dmg overall than volley.

You can't really be all that surprised

Kerberus

Whisperwind

51. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:35:57 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
The same exact number they chose when nerfing volley. Oh I get it, nerfing hunters by 30% is okay but is absurd to do to rogues.

I play a hunter (its my second class to my druid). And Volley (as well as hunters in general on single target) back then was doing obscene amounts of damage. So just stop the "Oh i get it", because you don't. I don't play a rogue.

Also, If this is mostly a PvP nerf (but as GC states, also a nerf to PvE which might be needed), which GC's post seems to imply the way i read it, then FoK applying poisons is a much bigger problem (especially for priests who can't dispel poisons unless Holy). Remove that aspect of the ability, and you will have made a very important change, as well as the damage will have been nerfed slightly.

[ Post edited by Kerberus ]

Kyeld

< Reckoning >

Bronzebeard

52. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:37:18 AM PDT

if rogue aoe is too much in PvE, why isn't DK and druid melee aoe being nerfed as well?

Treehuggin

< Relinquish >

Bloodhoof

53. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:37:24 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I play a hunter (its my second class to my druid). And Volley (as well as hunters in general on single target) back then was doing obscene amounts of damage. So just stop the "Oh i get it", because you don't. I don't play a rogue.

Also, If this is mostly a PvP nerf, which GC's post seems to imply the way i read it, then FoK applying poisons is a much bigger problem.

Anecdotal evidence about volley is always useful. Post on your hunter or your input is worthless. As far as it being a PvP nerf, it was needed in PvE as well.

Edit: I love how you say hunters were doing obscene amounts of damage, but then you think rogues aren't? Man I'd post on a low level alt too if I spewed this garbage.

[ Post edited by Treehuggin ]

80 Holy Paladin; 80 Resto/Balance Druid; 80 Surv Hunter; 73 Resto Shaman; 72 Shadow Priest; 70 Prot Warrior; 70 Frost Mage

Minnia

< Rawr vs Meow >

Doomhammer

54. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:37:49 AM PDT

The reason FoK exists IMO is to spread poisons.

It is their pestilence just with a ton more DMG.

Markee

< Eastern Mayhem >

Moonrunner

55. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:38:36 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I asked a rogue in our guild if she thought Blizzard would nerf Fan. She said "They probably need to, but it was fun while it lasted."

OMG GURLZ PLAY WOW

Lorelei

< Unnatural Selection >

Gilneas

56. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:40:12 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I asked a rogue in our guild if she thought Blizzard would nerf Fan. She said "They probably need to, but it was fun while it lasted."

Notice to all rogues: think back to see if anyone ever asked you this, and if this was your answer. If so, you are in GC's guild and his secret identity is revealed! Come forth! WE HAVE YOU NOW, CRUSTACEAN!

Kalgan, take me away!

Cruumash

< Trespass >

Shadowsong

57. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:42:22 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
if rogue aoe is too much in PvE, why isn't DK and druid melee aoe being nerfed as well?

If the problem is "Class X AE's does too much damage" then nerfing Class Y or Z's AE doesn't solve the problem in any way.

Kerberus

Whisperwind

58. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:42:45 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Anecdotal evidence about volley is always useful. Post on your hunter or your input is worthless. As far as it being a PvP nerf, it was needed in PvE as well.

My input is not worthless just because i don't post on my hunter (which i can't since i play on EU servers and this is a posting account) or don't link his armory.

It might be to you, but i don't need to talk to you, I'm talking to Ghostcrawler, and he doesn't give a flying sh*t about what char i post on, he cares about my actual ARGUMENTS (as well as he has the numbers for the amount og damage Volley did back then).

So no, i don't need to convince you of anything, and given how you post as well as the content i don't feel like i need to communicate with you either, because its obviously not worth it. I don't have the exact numbers for Volley back then, but Ghostcrawler has the numbers for Volley and FoK himself. He doesn't need more info from me.

Q u o t e:
Edit: I love how you say hunters were doing obscene amounts of damage, but then you think rogues aren't? Man I'd post on a low level alt too if I spewed this garbage.

And this is why i don't feel i need to communicate with you: You spew garbage, not me, and you only read what you want to read.

I DO in fact believe rogue damage is excessive right now.

I also believe that their single target damage is more out of line than their AOE damage.

A 30% nerf to their AOE damage when you can nerf them in PvP in other ways (and perhaps still also retain a PvE nerf to FoK of say.... 10-15% would be more appropriate IMO).

So let me put it simple: STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
And stop reading what you only want to read. I never said rogue damage was fine. I said that what boggled most rogues was that the nerf is really huge.

[ Post edited by Kerberus ]

Siphone

Fenris

59. Re: Can Rogues Get some Reasoning 08/15/2009 08:43:08 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
It's hard for me to imagine this is really out of the blue.

We sat on a change for awhile because we hoped FoK spam was a flavor-of-the-month thing. We thought there was a chance the community would come up with a way to counter it, and since it's pretty much a one-trick pony, there would be no reason to keep trying it. The community absolutely comes up with counters on its own -- the answer to every new strategy should not immediately be for us to nerf it. We also hoped the resilience changes would chill out the damage enough that rogues would stop pursuing FoK spam. That doesn't seem to be happening.

It is a nerf in PvE, but honestly it's probably a nerf that was also needed. We wanted to give rogues some AE damage, and we were okay with the big numbers for a long time because they were big when fights were short, but not as good over longer AE fights. (Protip: AE doesn't just equal trash these days.) Few people would argue that rogue single-target dps on most fights isn't amazing ("jaw-dropping"? ;) ). As long as rogues can still contribute meaningfully to AE fights, which they will be able to do, they shouldn't be in any danger of being sidelined.

It's possible some select fights, notably Yogg 0, may be too difficult without the interrupt, but the encounter designers are prepared to make changes accordingly, and everyone will have access to better gear in the new raid tier anyway.

I asked a rogue in our guild if she thought Blizzard would nerf Fan. She said "They probably need to, but it was fun while it lasted."

The greatest casualty is probably the loss of so many FoKing puns.

I hope you get paid very, very well. No one could deal with this community like you do, and the game itself is pretty good too ;)

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