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Q u o t e:


Ok, let me first be clear in that I too still have fun on my hunter, though it might have something to do with not playing nearly so much as i used to. I'm glad you are still enjoying your hunter.But.


The BG thing is constantly repeated in any forum where hunters in pvp is discussed. "You might be terrible in arenas but in bgs you can stomp!"
Well, I firmly believe that if the rated BGs actually offer comparable rewards to arenas in the future, there will be enough serious players in BGs to show that we have plenty of weaknesses besides the brutal LoS and small size of arenas. If people in BGs focused and sat on hunters like they do in arenas more often our rep for being great in bgs would deteriorate quickly.

I'm not saying we would drop to <1% rep in arathi basin or whatever, but it might open some eyes to see us get humbled nearly as easily. As is, people ignore hunters quite often, allowing us free range to spam pve level damage, making us look great on the damage/KBs.

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I don't disagree, but chances are in most BGs you are going to be able to hide behind many of the other players against all but the most hardcore BG groups. Hunters have plenty of PvP weaknesses and they definitely need to be looked at, but in bigger groups hunters work much better than in smaller ones and many of their weaknesses are mitigated in BGs compared to arena.

I was mostly responding about fun in PvE anyway. A lot of people fall into the forum hype of "we don't do the most damage on the WWS" and ignore how they work in "real-world" scenarios.

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Q u o t e:


Ok, let me first be clear in that I too still have fun on my hunter, though it might have something to do with not playing nearly so much as i used to. I'm glad you are still enjoying your hunter.But.


The BG thing is constantly repeated in any forum where hunters in pvp is discussed. "You might be terrible in arenas but in bgs you can stomp!"
Well, I firmly believe that if the rated BGs actually offer comparable rewards to arenas in the future, there will be enough serious players in BGs to show that we have plenty of weaknesses besides the brutal LoS and small size of arenas. If people in BGs focused and sat on hunters like they do in arenas more often our rep for being great in bgs would deteriorate quickly.

I'm not saying we would drop to <1% rep in arathi basin or whatever, but it might open some eyes to see us get humbled nearly as easily. As is, people ignore hunters quite often, allowing us free range to spam pve level damage, making us look great on the damage/KBs.

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I have similar thoughts on the difference between hunter 2v2 representation and 5v5 representation. In that same vein I believe hunter performance in 5v5 to be an illusion predicated by the focus the more powerful classes put in 2s and 3s... since they have no motivation to even play 5v5, there is less competition which artificially bolsters henter representation figures.


I guess we'll see next season whether there is a shift away from 2v2, and how that affects hunters -- once they have to play the best classes in 5s...

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Q u o t e:


Which is something most hunters wouldn't think off. Most hunters would have seen it as some extra defensive from the melee train, which is why most hunters would have keybound or placed on action bar for clicking.

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First I said that it wasn't saving most hunters a keybind and you said that's because most hunters are bad.

Now, he clarifies that non-bad hunters didn't have it keybound and you reverse yourself saying that only the bad hunters (which are the majority, according to you) had it keybound, therefore GC is correct.

I'm just about done taking you seriously.

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Q u o t e:


You are overlooking something.

They may not have been key binding, but they were most likely dragging the ability onto the tool bar and clicking it.

Yeah...that is the population I am referring to, and the population who would have been the most impacted by this "useless" merger of aspects. Guess what, the Devs have to make the game playable and enjoyable for them too.

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Those people weren't the ones complaining about having too many keybinds.

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Q u o t e:


Ok, let me first be clear in that I too still have fun on my hunter, though it might have something to do with not playing nearly so much as i used to. I'm glad you are still enjoying your hunter.But.


The BG thing is constantly repeated in any forum where hunters in pvp is discussed. "You might be terrible in arenas but in bgs you can stomp!"
Well, I firmly believe that if the rated BGs actually offer comparable rewards to arenas in the future, there will be enough serious players in BGs to show that we have plenty of weaknesses besides the brutal LoS and small size of arenas. If people in BGs focused and sat on hunters like they do in arenas more often our rep for being great in bgs would deteriorate quickly.

I'm not saying we would drop to <1% rep in arathi basin or whatever, but it might open some eyes to see us get humbled nearly as easily. As is, people ignore hunters quite often, allowing us free range to spam pve level damage, making us look great on the damage/KBs.

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the main reasons hunters do well in Bgs are lack of LoS and open range.

lot of room to roam in BGs and not a lot of places to hide.

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Q u o t e:
If we buff the holy heck out of Arcane, then every Survival hunter just shoots Arcane and won't take Explosive Shot. Since a lot of the Survival tree is designed to prop up Explosive Shot, we think this would a bad thing. Hence, we have to be very careful about how much we buff Arcane. If we do it in a very deep BM talent, then it's probably safe. If we do it baseline or through a glyph or an upper talent, then we might get into problems. By contrast, buffing Explosive or Chimera is pretty safe because no other hunter can ever use those shots. BM doesn't have a "this is BM only" attack to buff, unless it applies to the pet.

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How about making arcane shot (possibly again as a deep BM talent) do a stacking debuff that increases the damage the pet does with each attack. This would help avoid over scaling beast damage in PVP, as breaking line of sight with the hunter would make the stack drop - it would be about something the hunter is doing - but still ultimately increase damage through the pet.

I think being very careful about beast PVP damage is a big concern here, where as even if (some one, certainly not me) were to argue it's low, bestial wrath remains one of the most brutal anti CC effects out there for which the only counter is to either weather the damage, or run for cover.

A stacking debuff would also add an extra degree of awareness and skill to beast as missing your CD would be pretty noticeably punished - but as an attack you cast on the move it would hardly penalize beast on movement fights, particularly if the pet is immune to mob AoE (mob) damage and turns into a glorified DoT.

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Q u o t e:


How about making arcane shot (possibly again as a deep BM talent) do a stacking debuff that increases the damage the pet does with each attack. This would help avoid over scaling beast damage in PVP, as breaking line of sight with the hunter would make the stack drop - it would be about something the hunter is doing - but still ultimately increase damage through the pet.

I think being very careful about beast PVP damage is a big concern here, where as even if (some one, certainly not me) were to argue it's low, bestial wrath remains one of the most brutal anti CC effects out there for which the only counter is to either weather the damage, or run for cover.

A stacking debuff would also add an extra degree of awareness and skill to beast as missing your CD would be pretty noticeably punished - but as an attack you cast on the move it would hardly penalize beast on movement fights, particularly if the pet is immune to mob AoE (mob) damage and turns into a glorified DoT.

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Arcane is mashed relentlessly every time it even THINKS about being off CD. ^.^

Also, this adds no depth to the rotation. Just another application of automatic damage, which is NOT what we want.

Pets and autoshot are automatic enough tyvm.

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Q u o t e:


It isn’t a huge damage boost, but it is a damage boost and it helps to make an unattractive talent perhaps more attractive. Now the Wild Hunt change is a pretty decent damage boost, and if you look around there are some predictions now that BM might beat the Armor Pen-focused MM hunter for max dps. We'll see.

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Just out of curiousity, why is RoS linked to Wild Hunt? Can we get that removed since it's pretty much a PvP only ability now and I don't see why I should have to spend that extra talent point on something that I'll literally never use in it's current implementation.

Bah - let's shoot the moon here: For BM why not move the 3% raid buff into something static/passive just for having the talents and the pet out and make a "on pet crit" talent that gives the BM hunter something more to respond to and changes up his priority system?

Anyway ... thanks for hanging in here with us.

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Q u o t e:


It isn’t a huge damage boost, but it is a damage boost and it helps to make an unattractive talent perhaps more attractive. Now the Wild Hunt change is a pretty decent damage boost, and if you look around there are some predictions now that BM might beat the Armor Pen-focused MM hunter for max dps. We'll see.

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I'm going to go ahead and type this even though its just screaming nerf.

A lot of the problems BM faces as a PvE spec is face if the required 11pts in MM and 5 in SV.

The required 11 in MM aren't going anywhere (at least, if my understanding of design is accurate), but perhaps moving Imp. Tracking/Changing it would allow BM to take those extra points without gimping themself?

The problem the poster directly beneath you cited is accurate: Will the 3pts in Catlike reflexes work out to be BETTER than 3pts in Imp. Tracking? Because if not, it sadly will not see use :-(

EDIT: Looking at the BM tree, it IS possible to pick up Catlike Reflexes and the required talents in MM as well as Imp. Tracking.

Maybe I can go back to BM now? :-)

GC do you have any thoughts on any of the ideas we've been spitting out as far as a BM shot is concerned? I'm pretty interested in where you'll decide to take BM. Buffing arcane seems to be the easy way out to me. I'd really like our own shot. Anyways I'm sure you've seen it, but there are some good ideas and discussions going on in this thread:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18600878267&sid=1

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Q u o t e:
You no longer have to manage Aspects.

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I'm curious. Is this finally an admission that aspect of the Cheetah and aspect of the Pack are so crappy that no hunter uses them anymore except to run back from raid wipes? I'm also curious as to why you always have to turn hunter threads into fights GC....one might think you actually enjoy turning your back on this class as you soil your own hard earned reputation. We as a class are tired of being crap.....many suggestions have been made some self centered and others thoughtful and detailed. You have chosen to ignore that and choose a path of antagonism with this class. Mayb you need to take a step back for a while. I understand that you have done alot of hard work to the hunter class.....but don't you think it should show by now?

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Q u o t e:
I'm curious. Is this finally an admission that aspect of the Cheetah and aspect of the Pack are so crappy that no hunter uses them anymore except to run back from raid wipes? I'm also curious as to why you always have to turn hunter threads into fights GC....one might think you actually enjoy turning your back on this class as you soil your own hard earned reputation. We as a class are tired of being crap.....many suggestions have been made some self centered and others thoughtful and detailed. You have chosen to ignore that and choose a path of antagonism with this class. Mayb you need to take a step back for a while. I understand that you have done alot of hard work to the hunter class.....but don't you think it should show by now?

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lets just stop this please. This going back and forth is getting old and not getting us anywhere.

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Q u o t e:

And so the thread shifts from “GC doesn’t understand Arcane cooldowns” to “GC doesn’t understand Aspects.” I’ll come back to this thread when it gets back on the topic of hunters and away from trying to catch the devs in incorrect statements.

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"You no longer have to manage aspects" is arguably not a strictly incorrect statement. It's just, to me at least, a cop-out answer. To date, on live, there has really been no meaningful progress made to address the large number of keybinds a hunter is forced to use. And this is not a new complaint.

Ghostcrawler -- please don't abandon the thread. Amidst the trolls are people who really have good feedback to offer, who don't make a game of bashing blues, and really want to, if not be heard, then at least feel assured our concerns are known.

Is there any other way we can send detailed, well-thought feedback and get through the troll and muldoon filter to reach the ears of designers? The Q&A is a good start but there is followup that would be nice.

The forums just feel like fire-and-forget; hopefully blues do read, but I suspect a lot of good stuff falls through the cracks under the sheer volume of posts. That, in turn, becomes a disincentive to put together really detailed, researched, well-thought-out posts.

The trolls don't just bite you, they get us all.

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Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawler -- please don't abandon the thread. Amidst the trolls are people who really have good feedback to offer, who don't make a game of bashing blues, and really want to, if not be heard, then at least feel assured our concerns are known.

Is there any other way we can send detailed, well-thought feedback and get through the troll and muldoon filter to reach the ears of designers? The Q&A is a good start but there is followup that would be nice.

The forums just feel like fire-and-forget; hopefully blues do read, but I suspect a lot of good stuff falls through the cracks under the sheer volume of posts. That, in turn, becomes a disincentive to put together really detailed, researched, well-thought-out posts.

The trolls don't just bite you, they get us all.

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I'd say it's obvious he's still reading, so just post your feedback. However, just because he reads it doesn't mean he'll respond to it.

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Q u o t e:
You no longer have to manage Aspects.

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We still have to. How else are we gonna get mana back in a pvp setting? You helped removed a GCD bloat, but only managed to bring down 1 keybind for hunters by combining Hawk and monkey.

We still suffer a keybind bloat, and now with potentially 3 more keybinds on the horizon, what is going to hapen to that? Not to mention, up to 3 more GCD, bloating it once again.

This is assuming the other traps become viable, as far as I know, they have not.

I feel that BM could be brought up to par with the other two specs by giving it a proc-based cooldown reset on Arcane Shot and a new Shot.

The proc-based cooldown reset needs to be low in the tree to prevent MM hunters from being able to get it while simultaneously getting everything they want in MM. An easy place I see that it can be put in is in place of Invigoration. Invigoration isn't a useless talent, but it's not worth the talent points it would take to get it currently. However, it would make sense to me for it to expand on Ferocious Inspiration, which is a requirement to get it that all BM hunters take.

I suggest changing Invigoration such that it resets the cooldown on Arcane Shot when the pet crits with a special attack in addition to the meager mana regen it gives currently.

This retains the synergy with the pet as well as giving BM a dynamic proc that one needs to pay attention to to maximize damage output. Moreover, the mana regen makes more sense if the hunter will be using more Arcane Shots. Plus, it would end up having a great deal of synergy with Cobra Strikes. It's hard for me to say how much this would improve BM damage output, but a back-of-the-napkin estimate is that it would be a very significant increase (it might be too much... if so, it could be changed to a percent chance on pet crit to reset Arcane Shot... 50%, 60%... whatever it takes to balance it for most hunters).

Not to mention that it would add an interesting element to the spec's playstyle, much like LnL does for Survival.

As for the new shot, I'm still rolling ideas around in my head. If I think of something fun, I'll post it. I do think i should be related to the pet directly, however. BM really needs to reward effective pet usage and have even more pet synergy, in my opinion.

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Q u o t e:


"You no longer have to manage aspects" is arguably not a strictly incorrect statement. It's just, to me at least, a cop-out answer. To date, on live, there has really been no meaningful progress made to address the large number of keybinds a hunter is forced to use. And this is not a new complaint.

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Actually now that I re-read my statement I don't really understand how you could get "GC doesn't understand aspects" out of it.. I understand that you may not have liked it very much, but that wasn't really my point at all.

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Q u o t e:
I'm curious. Is this finally an admission that aspect of the Cheetah and aspect of the Pack are so crappy that no hunter uses them anymore except to run back from raid wipes? I'm also curious as to why you always have to turn hunter threads into fights GC....one might think you actually enjoy turning your back on this class as you soil your own hard earned reputation. We as a class are tired of being crap.....many suggestions have been made some self centered and others thoughtful and detailed. You have chosen to ignore that and choose a path of antagonism with this class. Mayb you need to take a step back for a while. I understand that you have done alot of hard work to the hunter class.....but don't you think it should show by now?

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You dont use Cheetah or Pack in any BG at all? Not to help ur FC gtfo down an empty tunnel in WSG or across the map toggling to Dragonhawk when ppl move in. You dont use it when you're in a fight in any BG and see one of your healers getting jumped? You dont CC your target and Cheetah/pack over and start railing the guy trying to down ur healer? Point being Cheetah/pack get used, obviously its for toggling but its always been that way.

GC doesnt turn the threads into fights. People QQ and try to twist his words into something they can use as perverbial ammunition to try and call him out and stick him in a corner then attempt to demand buffs. He's just laying it out and sick of people crying. Can you blame the guy? Some people in here have some really good ideas or some have good brainstorming going on and just need to be flushed out. The rest, just like your own post is QQ and not helping us as hunters get anywhere.

Personally im stoked about the upcoming changes and Im eager to see whats in store and I pray its all coming soon. BM could use some changes yes and it will be nice but still by no means should it be tops DPS for mashing 1 or 2 buttons. As BM has never had a hard rotation. Personally I'd like to see at least 1 or 2 more escape mechanics for PvP. DK's spamming instant root and warrior double charge with hamstring can be a pain to get out of most of the time if you dont have all your traps/abilities. If any are on CD you're in for a major whoopin while trying to get away if you even stand a chance.

EDIT: after going back I see some people wanting BM to be on par DPS with MM and Surv. I by no means agree. BM has always and will most likely always be the easiest rotation. Being able to faceroll your spec should NOT reward you with the same DPS other specs have many more things to manage and shuffle. THE ONE EXCEPTION:~~~~RET PALLY~~~~~ hehe yes I had to do that, its a faceroll spec