World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why Is Class Representation Considered?

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

20. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 01:48:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
This. If less people are playing rogues than say, hunters, Blizzard wants to know why. Is it more fun? Is it too powerful? Can they make hunter gameplay more fun?

This is true.

Q u o t e:
Basically this is what I think of for why they consider it. GC has said that they are afraid of buffing warriors too much because they previously were THE tank class and that perception is still carried by a respectably high number of people. They want to make sure the other tanks are considered equally effective tanks, so they are being very careful how they buff warriors because if they over buff them they will have just destroyed everything they were trying to change about the majority perception within the community. They also take into consideration whether they are being effective in the current content and since they are they haven't had any need to do anything in an emergency mini-patch way.

And so is this.

Let's consider a totally hypothetical example (and I am being serious about that):

Say we did some extensive data extraction from Ulduar and found that only 5% of guilds use Feral tanks when learning hard modes. Assume for the sake of my very contrived example that we could somehow select for those guilds with a potential to beat the encounters, but that the encounters weren't on farm yet. Assume that the sample size was somehow large enough that the statistics are not at fault in any of this data collection. (I'm trying not to let you Kobayashi Maru your way out of being able to resolve the scenario.)

Now, let's also assume that we convinced ourselves beyond a shadow of a doubt that using a competent and appropriately geared Feral tank made most of the hard mode encounters significantly easier. Assume that the community also felt the same way -- that it wasn't a dark secret.

The fair thing to do from a balance point-of-view would be to nerf Feral tanks. This will likely cause the percentage of them to drop from say 5% to 2% or virtually nil. A game designer should look at that and say: Yikes!

You can argue that maybe the bear is just a horribly frustrating spec to play and so nobody does it despite its advantages. I don't really buy that though. Players tend to say that about all of the classes, and I don't see a lot of evidence that Ferals are somehow unique in this regard. Furthermore, many of our players will do things that are soul-crushingly frustrating if they think it might confer to them a small advantage, which is often why we nerf such things -- to save players from themselves so to speak. It's just hard to resolve how, in this particular example, why more guilds don't go stampeding towards druid tanks if they are overpowered.

It's a tough question -- what to do with the overpowered but underplayed spec, assuming it doesn't have any crippling gameplay flaws? What do you do with the spec that is wildly popular but underpowered? Do you make them somehow less fun (even if it's relative) so players try out the other specs? I think saying "just make all the specs as fun!" is a cop out. We try to do that all the time, but I don't think that will ever result in as many shamans as warriors.

This is why I say we don't balance around representation. We don't tweak numbers until we have 25% of each tank in Ulduar.(Or should the number skew higher towards DKs since they have more than one spec? Or should the numbers skew lower for paladins and druids since fewer races can be them?) But we do have to consider representation when we're making changes.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Demogar

< Enveloping Shadows >

Lightninghoof

21. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:00:16 PM PDT

My problem with this logic (that DOES make sense from a certain PoV) is that while we may be overrepresented we still are sub-par.

If a LARGE portion of your tank community (and thus subscribers) are Warrior tanks and you admit that we are underpowered in some regards is it fair to not balance us because there are too many people playing my class?

So because Druids are underrepresented does that mean they should have the incredible luxury to run around being completely OP?

All it does is make me say "Man my guild would be better off without me"

All it does is make us wish we were underrepresented to so would allow us to get balanced out... There may be a lot of us but we ARE underpowered and shouldn't be neglected.

What is the end game? Let a lot of Warrior tanks who are passionate about it go re-roll Druid to make sure they get proper representation then expect buffs?

Druids can do incredible DPS with two completely different specs and be incredible healers... So they can serve FOUR roles... Don't you think that plays into them not having as many tanks as a class that can only serve two?

[ Post edited by Demogar ]

Fauxpaws

< Mutation >

Durotan

23. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:02:38 PM PDT

GC, I think perception has a very large bit to do with it.

Consider when DKs were new to the scene. There was a common perception that DKs were squishy tanks and needed significant buffs just to be able to make it through a heroic. Much less a hard mode raid.

There were some skilled DKs, but by and large, most people agreed that DKs just weren't up to the other tanks from a survivability standpoint. The buffs rolled in and lo and behold, DKs were cruising around tanking things with no problems. Then, it became somewhat apparent that DKs were a bit too good. Now the nerfs roll in and it's just a bitter pill to swallow.

The community feels betrayed because they were given those new shiny toys, but then had them yanked out of their hands.

Feral druids are in a similar boat. They're quite powerful, but there's still a perception that they're squishy. Why? I have no idea. People really do have some silly bias against ferals. Granted, these aren't top-end raiding guilds, but there's enough out there that the myth carries enough weight that when people are at the character selection screen they think tank and roll warrior or paladin. When they see druid they think, "healer or moonkin."

It does carry over into more progressed guilds. Especially, when you design encounters balanced in such a way that any tank can supposedly fulfill the roll adequately enough. Why take chances with a druid when it's pretty much guaranteed that a warrior will always be, "good enough"?

My mother nerfed me once, GC. Once...

Nastyena

< Casually Serious >

Emerald Dream

24. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:07:08 PM PDT

16% DK
13% Paladin
10% Druid
8% Warrior

Warrior numbers have taken a fine tumble. So either apply the rules of class culling to drop DK numbers, or buff warriors. The numbers have to be low for some reason.

Adilira

< Dressed To Kill >

Norgannon

25. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:08:25 PM PDT

The problem is that a ton of people are going to read your post as "It's less of a problem if warrior tanks are too weak than if other tanks are"

Could you just clarify that that's not what you mean so we can move on?

Shamploo

Anetheron

26. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:09:28 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
16% DK
13% Paladin
10% Druid
8% Warrior

Warrior numbers have taken a fine tumble. So either apply the rules of class culling to drop DK numbers, or buff warriors. The numbers have to be low for some reason.

just wait for 3.2 to go live.

Demogar

< Enveloping Shadows >

Lightninghoof

27. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:09:57 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
The problem is that a ton of people are going to read your post as "It's less of a problem if warrior tanks are too weak than if other tanks are"

Could you just clarify that that's not what you mean so we can move on?

Exactly...

"Your problems don't mean as much because your class is overrepresented."

All it makes me do is want to re-roll Druid...

But I suppose that is what they want us to do to solve the underpopulation problem.

Carrotteets

< Gentlemens Club >

Korgath

28. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:10:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

This is true.

And so is this.

Let's consider a totally hypothetical example (and I am being serious about that):

Say we did some extensive data extraction from Ulduar and found that only 5% of guilds use Feral tanks when learning hard modes. Assume for the sake of my very contrived example that we could somehow select for those guilds with a potential to beat the encounters, but that the encounters weren't on farm yet. Assume that the sample size was somehow large enough that the statistics are not at fault in any of this data collection. (I'm trying not to let you Kobayashi Maru your way out of being able to resolve the scenario.)

Now, let's also assume that we convinced ourselves beyond a shadow of a doubt that using a competent and appropriately geared Feral tank made most of the hard mode encounters significantly easier. Assume that the community also felt the same way -- that it wasn't a dark secret.

The fair thing to do from a balance point-of-view would be to nerf Feral tanks. This will likely cause the percentage of them to drop from say 5% to 2% or virtually nil. A game designer should look at that and say: Yikes!

You can argue that maybe the bear is just a horribly frustrating spec to play and so nobody does it despite its advantages. I don't really buy that though. Players tend to say that about all of the classes, and I don't see a lot of evidence that Ferals are somehow unique in this regard. Furthermore, many of our players will do things that are soul-crushingly frustrating if they think it might confer to them a small advantage, which is often why we nerf such things -- to save players from themselves so to speak. It's just hard to resolve how, in this particular example, why more guilds don't go stampeding towards druid tanks if they are overpowered.

It's a tough question -- what to do with the overpowered but underplayed spec, assuming it doesn't have any crippling gameplay flaws? What do you do with the spec that is wildly popular but underpowered? Do you make them somehow less fun (even if it's relative) so players try out the other specs? I think saying "just make all the specs as fun!" is a cop out. We try to do that all the time, but I don't think that will ever result in as many shamans as warriors.

This is why I say we don't balance around representation. We don't tweak numbers until we have 25% of each tank in Ulduar.(Or should the number skew higher towards DKs since they have more than one spec? Or should the numbers skew lower for paladins and druids since fewer races can be them?) But we do have to consider representation when we're making changes.

How about you buff the underplayed specs, regardless of numbers and find out why players are not playing the other tanks even when there are obvious advantages to being them and address that. By simply ignoring the issue and leaving Protection Warriors alone and nerfing the most played tank currently from any form of progression guild (DKs) you haven't done anything but make people angry. Some will switch classes, but this isn't a very good motivator.

If you had a QA session, you know a real one, and ask the people why they play their tank over the other ones you would be surprised what you find out. Protection Warriors have the most enjoyable playstyle, barring all of the problems with their class. I played a Feral Druid, and Protection Paladin. This is the only tank I feel that you guys designed correctly. Feral Druids seem really boring with their "priorities" and rotation, the solution to fix their AE threat is to spam 1 button, do you know that this is exactly what Paladins complained about for the LONGEST time of "facerolling?" Paladins have pretty much always been a strong class as a whole, their numbers were down because people simply got bored of them.

In short, yes class representation should be considered when making evaluations (then further investigate the problem) however your approach does nothing to solve the problem. Make Paladins more enjoyable to play, make Feral Druids more enjoyable to play. Feral Druids are exactly where they need to be in terms of balance, Paladins simply needed a secondary cooldown on a 2 min cd so they were capable of handling 1 minute burst attacks, that is really it. The playstyle is what you should have fixed along with fixing the ACTUAL CLASS DISCREPANCIES that face Warriors.

-Players will always flock to what is FotM and overpowered, which is what has happened with DKs. I disagree with any estimation that not many people play DKs or use them for progression - a quick glance at wowmetersonline will show that they are overwhelmingly in the majority for Wotlk.

[ Post edited by Carrotteets ]

Ire

< Learn This or Wipe >

Azjol-Nerub

29. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:11:11 PM PDT

The flip and unsatisfactory answer is going to be that feral druid dps is very, very high. Druids and priests also make the best healing classes in raids because of current raid design, especially in 10s.

Also, some of the unique aspects of a druid can sometimes only be performed while not tanking. There's more opportunities to make use of druid signature abilities (e.g. battle rez, innervate, tranquility) while feral dpsing.

My favorite moments playing a druid involve those abilities. I suspect the kind of player drawn to the class is one that has a greater awareness of what is going on in an encounter than the average player. At least that's been my experience.

Gnomemon

< Stormrage >

Nazgrel

30. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:11:35 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
16% DK
13% Paladin
10% Druid
8% Warrior

Warrior numbers have taken a fine tumble. So either apply the rules of class culling to drop DK numbers, or buff warriors. The numbers have to be low for some reason.

Um... randomly generated number are random?

If you're going to list any type of statistical data you should provide your source for verification of those numbers....

I have also found many tanks to be more reluctant to swap out gear per encounter than they should. Good tanks often swap out their rings, trinkets etc. from fight to fight.
-Ghostcrawler

Demogar

< Enveloping Shadows >

Lightninghoof

31. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:13:32 PM PDT

Druids can Heal, tank, Melee DPS and caster DPS.

Warriors can Melee DPS and Tank.

We have TWO roles compared to Druid's four... Thank that might have something to do with it?

Nastyena

< Casually Serious >

Emerald Dream

32. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:15:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Um... randomly generated number are random?

If you're going to list any type of statistical data you should provide your source for verification of those numbers....

Fair enough.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

Healers are like artists, no one appreciates them until they are dead.
Anyone who can keep a drool cup upright can burst out 15k damage in 3 GCD as a ret paladin.

Fauxpaws

< Mutation >

Durotan

33. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:19:00 PM PDT

There's 3 types of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

My mother nerfed me once, GC. Once...

Nastyena

< Casually Serious >

Emerald Dream

34. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:19:52 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Druids can Heal, tank, Melee DPS and caster DPS.

Warriors can Melee DPS and Tank.

We have TWO roles compared to Druid's four... Thank that might have something to do with it?

Sure - Paladins have 3 roles. So using that as a rule then number of roles are the regulator to class population?

So there should always be twice as many druids as warriors because there are 2 times as many roles for druids? 1.5 times as many paladins?

Point is that there are half as many warriors as death knights. Doesn't that imply warriors are way less enjoyable to play than death knights? If Blizzard plays with classes to equalize the population - then haven't they succeeded with warriors? Are the numbers supposed to be lower for warriors? Maybe 5% is the target?

[ Post edited by Nastyena ]

Gnomemon

< Stormrage >

Nazgrel

35. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:21:15 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Fair enough.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

The numbers I'm seeing reported are

15% DKs
13% Paladins
10% Warriors and Druids

This is across all servers and factions of all characters that are level 80.

But then this data does not provide any information on how many of these are alts verse mains or what primary specs they run. And of course this is also all dependent upon how many people are running the census mod.

I have also found many tanks to be more reluctant to swap out gear per encounter than they should. Good tanks often swap out their rings, trinkets etc. from fight to fight.
-Ghostcrawler

Seasonspeech

< Cult of Reason >

Tichondrius

36. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:22:17 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Druids can Heal, tank, Melee DPS and caster DPS.

Warriors can Melee DPS and Tank.

We have TWO roles compared to Druid's four... Thank that might have something to do with it?

And warriors had been the rock stars of wow for 4 years.

There is no simple answer.

A crow cannot understand the ambitions of a falcon.

Shamploo

Anetheron

37. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:22:31 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

The numbers I'm seeing reported are

15% DKs
13% Paladins
10% Warriors and Druids

same^

Fauxpaws

< Mutation >

Durotan

38. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:22:42 PM PDT

Using a census site only shows us what is popular at the time. In a game that allows and even encourages the playing of multiple characters. All that shows me is that everyone wants to try out the new kid on the block.

My mother nerfed me once, GC. Once...

Arle

Sisters of Elune

39. Re: Why Is Class Representation Considered? 07/17/2009 02:23:09 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Fair enough.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

Surprisingly when I do a level 80 search on the census I am getting the following figures:

DK 406,181 15%
Druid 271,469 10%
Paladin 359,717 13%
Warrior 259,559 10%

Although, the bigger question is: how many of these tank?

EDIT: I have a DK, Paladin and Druid all having a tank spec... But I tank only with my druid. How do you take alts into account in these numbers?

I would love to quote a phrase I heard someone say sometime back:

Q u o t e:

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is important but what they conceal is vital

[ Post edited by Arle ]

Forum > CLASS ROLES > TANKING