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Q u o t e:
The main goal of the change was to make parry not so much less attractive than dodge as an avoidance stat. Since tank avoidance is so high already, we wanted to do that by nerfing dodge a little, not by buffing parry.

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.

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I think that's about what we expected the reasoning was. Somewhat of a nerf across the board, hitting Druids a little more, yet making Parry less unwanted. This also opens the door a little to have bosses hit a little softer since tanks will be mitigating less of their damage through avoidance.

We expect the avoidance nerf. Just about who can survive hard modes and can everyone play a part/roll when needed to. 50% of the time it is said some can not (see Warriors)

I knew it had to be something other than an avoidance nerf to the tanks. Thanks for the reply.

However, as far as the dodge vs parry, you've got to consider that a lot of people think in absolutes. "Parry is not as good as dodge" turns into "NEVER GEM PARRY BECAUSE IT'S A GARBAGE STAT". I don't think it'll change their perceptions, but that's more of a problem with humanity.

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Q u o t e:


Your thinking is backwards. We need to hope for significant avoidance cuts because otherwise Blizzard can only threaten tanks with bigger mack trucks. Maybe Kenworths with a double-wide load?

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I wonder if I am able to threaten myself with a bigger version of myself?

Oh yeah, I'm coming after you!

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Q u o t e:
The main goal of the change was to make parry not so much less attractive than dodge as an avoidance stat. Since tank avoidance is so high already, we wanted to do that by nerfing dodge a little, not by buffing parry.

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.

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I would assume that this means the nerf would be coming in this expansion, possibly with IceCrown then?

Or is the 20-30% nerf likely to come in the next expansion when it wouldn't really look like a nerf so much?

Also, here's hoping more changes are to come on the PTR.

Although the desire to make parry more desirable is commendable and understandable, the root of the problem still exists - parry does the exact same thing as dodge. You can't say the same for any other two stats in the game except, perhaps, strength and AP (and even then, strength does some things AP doesn't, for certain classes, and vice versa).

Originally, the factor that was supposed to separate parry from dodge and the reason why parry is more expensive than dodge, budget wise, was parry hasting. The problem is, from a threat/dps perspective, parry hasting is all but unnoticable.

This is what makes me curious about the change. Why not simply buff parry-hasting for players in some manner such that parry is subpar to dodge for pure avoidance, but gives additional threat where dodge does not, thus making it a trade off? Why not reinforce the original intention? Not only would this make parry less horrid, it would do so without raising overall avoidance.

Only thing that this change has me wondering is whether or not this change will be enough to make blade warding better than mongoose for paladins.

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Q u o t e:
The main goal of the change was to make parry not so much less attractive than dodge as an avoidance stat. Since tank avoidance is so high already, we wanted to do that by nerfing dodge a little, not by buffing parry.

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.

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1. I am glad this isn't the expected avoidance nerf, since, as a nerf, it isn't that good, more of a band-aid nerf.

2. Wouldn't relaxing parry DR and tightening dodge DR do more to make them more equally desirable than to have them start out about equal and still make Parry DR so much harsher than Dodge DR?

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Q u o t e:

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

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Keep in mind that warrior dps is lacking in both single target and aoe, Cleave is a great mechanic for aoe tanking but way too lacking in targets, we already have so many glyphs to chose from to become close to what other tanks are, either choosing aoe glyphs, cd glyphs, ect.., cleave is decetn but it needs to hit more than 2 targets as a baseline ability, because it is very inefficient as it is and i believe maybe fixing cleave and thunderclap that the aoe dps of a prot warrior would be more in line.

Another thing that is holding warrior dps back is the amount of threat we get outside of our damage, innate threat, between innate threat abilities and vigilance, we could be doing a good amount more of dps if our threat was based on damage like how you have said you wanted tank threat to be in wrath.

And another thing i dont get is why is vigilance even in the class? i thought warrior threat was designed without vigilance in mind. But the case now a days is that warrior threat even WITH vigilance is iffy. which makes me wonder, if my threat is designed without vigilance in mind, then my threat is way way below what it should be.

Makes me wonder with all the reports and even having cider saying in tankspot that we need a dps buff and showing logical conversation, that it would be obvious that warrior dps is lacking, but this isnt the first time it takes blizzard months to figure out something the community knew the moment it came out.

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Q u o t e:
The main goal of the change was to make parry not so much less attractive than dodge as an avoidance stat. Since tank avoidance is so high already, we wanted to do that by nerfing dodge a little, not by buffing parry.

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.

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If you nerf avoidance by 20-30% based off of the new tier gear in the future the biggest nerfs will be to new lvl 80's starting out trying to get new gear. It seems like you are going to nerf the game a lot because you put out new high level loot that makes everyone too powerful - everyone who has the new end game loot that is.

How do you plan to balance the low end 80's so that they can get new gear if they are nerfed (punished?) because all the new gear should be for lvl 90's but there isn't a lvl 90 in the game to balance? You said that you don't want to make bosses hit harder - but they have to if you keep dropping bigger and better armor/weapons/etc.

A company called Turbine tried to balance a game for "the better of the game in the long run" and they drove off a large portion of the core base. When they shut the game down they had an amazingly tight and clean game with cool mechanics that no one played.

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Q u o t e:


If you nerf avoidance by 20-30% based off of the new tier gear in the future the biggest nerfs will be to new lvl 80's starting out trying to get new gear. It seems like you are going to nerf the game a lot because you put out new high level loot that makes everyone too powerful - everyone who has the new end game loot that is.

How do you plan to balance the low end 80's so that they can get new gear if they are nerfed (punished?) because all the new gear should be for lvl 90's but there isn't a lvl 90 in the game to balance? You said that you don't want to make bosses hit harder - but they have to if you keep dropping bigger and better armor/weapons/etc.

A company called Turbine tried to balance a game for "the better of the game in the long run" and they drove off a large portion of the core base. When they shut the game down they had an amazingly tight and clean game with cool mechanics that no one played.

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This is what the expansion is for. No way they will be doing all the changes CG pointed out in the middle meat of LK.

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Q u o t e:


Oh yes. At some point "Not BiS" became "trash." :)

It's not the end of the world if parry gems rot. But we want to be able to put parry on say rings without those just being sharded.

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*bear tears begin to flow like wine.*

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Q u o t e:


Surely you know warrior threat is balanced around vigilance, Someone posted that he felt vanity played a large part in the lack of warrior redesign and I am not sure he is wrong.

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oh i know it is designed with it in mind, BUT when vigilance was introduced, it was said that warrior threat was designed without it in mind.