World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Avoidance Change

Kalisti

< BIoodIine >

Frostmane

21. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 06:14:37 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Avoidance ranking:
#1 NE Frost DK
#2 Frost DK
#3 NE Blood DK
#4 NE Unholy DK
#5 Blood DK
#6 NE Warrior
#7 Paladin
#8 Unholy DK
#9 Warrior
#10 NE Druid
#11 Tauren Druid

Fixed.

Shig

< CONVERGE >

Maelstrom

22. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 06:21:53 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
seriously?

before miss we are 3.44% below paladins and 2.56% below warriors. Our miss should be equal.

so barely higher armor
lower hp frost/unholy tanks or slightly higher hp (blood)
less avoidance
similar threat

again why even bring a compentent dk tank, since they will be taking more hits for more dmg all the time with equal or less EH then every other tank.

please tell me i am reading this wrong.

Welcome to the bottom. Get comfortable. :)

Post on your main, or gtfo.

Thoxx

< Afterlife >

Cenarius

23. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 06:33:31 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Miss is not equal. DK has a lead on Warrior and Paladin.

Your avoidance is not 3.44% below Paladins and 2.56% below Warriors in the same gear.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tI0_yc34XwwTfaPRGUCBHYQ
Skip down to the avoidance section. I'm using the new 3.2 values for AGI, Dodge, and Parry conversions. If you want to see the gear used, it's located on the second page titled "Gear List".

Paladin
Miss 12.28977058
Dodge 28.77324329
Parry 21.81589493
Avoidance 62.87890881

Warrior
Miss 12.33968177
Dodge 28.13123375
Parry 21.86825914
Avoidance 62.33917466

Blood DK
Miss 12.88431693
Dodge 28.55195723
Parry 21.62030933
Avoidance 63.05658349

Unholy DK
Miss 12.88431693
Dodge 28.55195723
Parry 21.4255291
Avoidance 62.86180325

Frost DK
Miss 15.88431693
Dodge 28.55195723
Parry 21.31027256
Avoidance 65.74654671

Druid (HP focus)
Miss 11.62076847
Dodge 46.77462034
Avoidance 58.39538881

Avoidance ranking:
#1 Frost DK
#2 Blood DK
#3 Paladin
#4 Unholy DK
#5 Warrior
#6 Druid

I notice the DK is using a hunter weapon for the agility (112), while the warrior and paladin sets use the expected defense gear which includes strength (111), which generates more threat.

The other top weapon, "Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion," also has more stamina.

Thus this DK (all three specs) is sacrificing health and threat for avoidance.

Feanorion

< Symphony of Pain >

Farstriders

24. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 06:46:37 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
The avoidance changes are deeply troubling.---The tank with the best effective health is the best tank. Even pointing to cooldowns doesn't change this fact because cooldowns are only good because they change effective health.

Healers have to spam to keep you alive on hard fights regardless of your RNG luck. More avoidance just means more overheal.

This is why I am on board with a serious nerf to overall avoidance. If fewer hits are avoided completely, the ones that do hit do not need to be so devastating in order to threaten the tank's survivability. This improves Block as a mitigation tool and makes healing less of a spam-fest requirement.

With lower avoidance, DK's will need Rune Strikes reworked to proc on more than just avoided swings and/or to give their normal moves a higher baked-in threat modifier. The latter is a better solution and just eliminate rune strikes altogether. They are often bound to other attacks anyway, making them a dull and uninteresting rage mechanic. There is never a choice with rune strike currently: if it is available, you have to use it. DK threat is too dependant upon it for their threat production.

Rage generation will also need to be fixed, and likely will need to include rage on damage done, which warriors need regardless of other changes.

Months of Beta testing = "Operating as intended".
Months of PTR testing = "Ret is fine".
24 hours of qq from PvP non-paladins on live = "TO THE GROUND, BABY!"

"Your sig <here> Ask me how!"

Thoxx

< Afterlife >

Cenarius

26. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 07:31:33 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Did you consider Betrayer of Humanity a Hunter weapon? Regardless, Dark Edge has 164 AP. You're not losing 130 worth of STR in terms of threat. Assuming a Blood DK, it'd be a 145 AP difference. The two are even in terms of critical strike %. In addition, the "neutral" set has a total of 103 hit rating not counting the weapon slot. You're gaining 64 hit rating with Dark Edge. My guess is that the threat loss when you consider the overall gear set is minimal to none.

The loss of 16 STA results in a decrease of 192 raid buffed HP.

Anyway, let's say you pick up Voldrethar instead of the top avoidance weapon. Parry will increase some, but your dodge will decrease more.

Blood DK: 62.43% (-.63%)
Unholy DK: 62.22% (-0.64%)
Frost DK: 65.10% (-.65%)

I still don't see these 2-3% disparities.

Fair enough.

Personally I don't even care about a 2, 3, even 5% difference in avoidance, but that's because I'm raid focused, and on hard content, healers spam. Avoiding something just means more overheal. I'd happily trade a few points of dodge/parry for, say, the convenience/certainty of being able to apply my own demoralizing/commanding shout.

Effective health is the only thing that really matters. Even cooldowns are only good due to their increase in effective health.

Nandy

< Discord >

Medivh

27. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 08:01:48 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Druid (HP focus)
Miss 11.62076847
Dodge 46.77462034
Avoidance 58.39538881

Avoidance ranking:
#1 Frost DK
#2 Blood DK
#3 Paladin
#4 Unholy DK
#5 Warrior
#6 Druid
#7 Tauren Druid

@%*% some night elf racial. >.<

GLAD I GET 232 hp!!!!

A good tank is normally a over achiever/perfectionist (and excels and tank/dps/heals)
A DPS is usually a slack jaw hippy
And a healer more often then not is insecure and needs to be validated a lot.

Proletaria

< Twílìght Vagabonds >

Mal'Ganis

28. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 08:44:55 AM PDT

Seems negligible for just about everyone. What was the point of this change again? I suppose it slows avoidance scaling by a measured amount, but doesn't really seem like it's going to cause a paradigm shift in gearing at all.

Nandy

< Discord >

Medivh

29. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 08:58:17 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Seems negligible for just about everyone. What was the point of this change again? I suppose it slows avoidance scaling by a measured amount, but doesn't really seem like it's going to cause a paradigm shift in gearing at all.

Ya, honestly I thought we would all probably drop down 5-10%. GC has stated many times that he thinks avoidance levels are too high, and they are. Suppose we should just be happy they aren't that bad!

A good tank is normally a over achiever/perfectionist (and excels and tank/dps/heals)
A DPS is usually a slack jaw hippy
And a healer more often then not is insecure and needs to be validated a lot.

Proletaria

< Twílìght Vagabonds >

Mal'Ganis

30. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:00:10 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Ya, honestly I thought we would all probably drop down 5-10%. GC has stated many times that he thinks avoidance levels are too high, and they are. Suppose we should just be happy they aren't that bad!

*shrug* I was looking forward to a new way of thinking about tanking and tank healing with a noticable avoidance nerf, but I guess they are taking this one slow. I'd wager that's because the new raid is already balanced around ulduar-esq damage levels.

Janana

< Tarren Mill Deathgua… >

Darkspear

31. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:06:04 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Welcome to the bottom. Get comfortable. :)

thanks shig, long as i get to hang out with you. sunshine.

glutton your numbers do not line up with communsims. by almost 5% why is that?
i am headed to work and don't have time to check your spreadsheet for the difference.

[ Post edited by Janana ]

Darkspear-US 80 B DK - Janana, 76 Druid Lilianara
Welcome to the tanking forums, where every thread turns into a whining contest between warriors, paladins, druids and death knights.

Shig

< CONVERGE >

Maelstrom

32. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:08:13 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

thanks shig, long as i get to hang out with you. sunshine.

Some people say "never settle for mediocrity."

I say "Thats ok, as long as we have each other."

/swoon

Post on your main, or gtfo.

Feanorion

< Symphony of Pain >

Farstriders

33. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:12:57 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Ya, honestly I thought we would all probably drop down 5-10%. GC has stated many times that he thinks avoidance levels are too high, and they are. Suppose we should just be happy they aren't that bad!

Your thinking is backwards. We need to hope for significant avoidance cuts because otherwise Blizzard can only threaten tanks with bigger mack trucks. Maybe Kenworths with a double-wide load?

Months of Beta testing = "Operating as intended".
Months of PTR testing = "Ret is fine".
24 hours of qq from PvP non-paladins on live = "TO THE GROUND, BABY!"

"Your sig <here> Ask me how!"

Teraxe

< Bamboozlers >

Shadowmoon

34. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:16:08 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Has anyone confirmed yet that the caps and constants for the classes have not been changed as well?

Satrina you rock, I want a tanking piece named after me.

My talent rebuid for 3.2 http://www.war-tools.com/t63933.html

Chakija

Mal'Ganis

35. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:21:36 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

@%*% some night elf racial. >.<

GLAD I GET 232 hp!!!!

other classes always use nelf druids in avoidance comparisons but every EH whinecraft sports a tauren druid

Shig

< CONVERGE >

Maelstrom

36. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 09:23:37 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

other classes always use nelf druids in avoidance comparisons but every EH whinecraft sports a tauren druid

Its called min/maxing. Its what theorycrafters do. If its available, and you don't use it, its your problem.

Post on your main, or gtfo.

Communism

The Underbog

37. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 01:09:37 PM PDT

Glutton, did you apply diminishing returns to the STR-> parry rating conversion?

Looking at K59. You list the DKs STR as 1596, so that's 399 rating, which you can just add to the rating calculation you did above it.

80 Death Knight, Paladin, Rogue, Priest , and Druid
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Boulderfist&n=Communism
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/owndotexe/communism.jpg

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

39. Re: Avoidance Change 07/13/2009 01:50:43 PM PDT

The main goal of the change was to make parry not so much less attractive than dodge as an avoidance stat. Since tank avoidance is so high already, we wanted to do that by nerfing dodge a little, not by buffing parry.

This hurts druids slightly more than other tanks, but the emphasis is on "slightly." This is not the big druid nerf that some forum posters have predicted. We will continue to evaluate tank survivability and threat generation based on PTR tests with "Patchwerk" to decide if druids need to be nerfed or DKs buffed or look at Prot warrior dps or anything else.

This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Forum > CLASS ROLES > TANKING