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Q u o t e:
What needs to be emphasized is:

If you watch the videos, there is ZERO difference between the CH jump range on live and on the ptr. None. Whatever 8 they changed to a 10 seems to be having no effect.

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This.

And it might seem like I'm not adding content, but people keep moving away from this central fact.

Theorize all we want to about why 8 yards on one ability isn't the same as 8 yards on another: it doesn't matter. The 8 yards of CH jump on live is the same as the 10 yards of CH jump on test.

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Q u o t e:

This.

And it might seem like I'm not adding content, but people keep moving away from this central fact.

Theorize all we want to about why 8 yards on one ability isn't the same as 8 yards on another: it doesn't matter. The 8 yards of CH jump on live is the same as the 10 yards of CH jump on test.

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I agree with this, its just interesting to see how some spells work vs. others. Especially since GC has already come in and said that they went from 8 to 10.

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Q u o t e:
We changed the number 8 on the Chain Heal spell to a 10. I am pretty sure whatever bugs WoW might have would not make these two numbers the same. So however you are measuring the range on live, it is 2 yards higher on the PTR.

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Then you might want to have your people check whether "num lock" was down when they pressed 10 on their keypad :P

Jokes aside, I have also tested extensively on live and on PTR on my shaman and there is absolutely no difference in the heal jump range. None, zip, nada.

Why would so many of us be claiming this if we were all wrong?

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Q u o t e:
Do your test with the paladin just barely in CH range, then duel and have the paladin hit consecrate. Consecrate is 8 yards and wont hit the shaman. Alternatively, Glyph of Holy Light (8 yards) won't hit the shaman at that range either.

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Hmmm... Again, this is a misleading argument, Noklar. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have considered the possibility that you're being intentionally misleading. That might be a fun game on some forums, but here I'd suspect we have at least a few people who can distinguish a solid argument from a flawed one, and will point it out.

Your comments suggest that you did perform the same test as I did, but ignored the results for the sake of producing a video that met your desired outcome.

Consecration, again, is very probably more akin to auras -- in the same way that flare is (and, though 8 yards is suggested by hidden values in the game files, Consecration is not explicitly 8 yards). So demonstrations with Consecration only show that there is a difference between aura math and direct spell math.

Glyph of Holy Light is another interesting case -- it is explicitly 8 yards, but it's a multi-target effect rather than a single target direct heal. I wouldn't mind performing some tests with it myself, but I wonder how much I can be bothered.

Ultimately, let me restate this: that this whole discussion can be ended most simply with a test case that functions differently on the ptr, when compared to live. Test cases that perform identically on both live and ptr aren't really proofs that nothing has changed. They do prove that range checking is strange in Wow (and they can be presented in a way that gives the impression that Shaman are being cheated) -- however what we really want is a proof that chain heal doesn't jump 2 yards further on the ptr. That may be a little hard to prove, but it should be fairly easy to disprove -- if anyone's willing to take a serious stab at it.

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Q u o t e:

Ultimately, let me restate this: that this whole discussion can be ended most simply with a test case that functions differently on the ptr, when compared to live. Test cases that perform identically on both live and ptr aren't really proofs that nothing has changed. They do prove that range checking is strange in Wow (and they can be presented in a way that gives the impression that Shaman are being cheated) -- however what we really want is a proof that chain heal doesn't jump 2 yards further on the ptr. That may be a little hard to prove, but it should be fairly easy to disprove -- if anyone's willing to take a serious stab at it.

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Watch the videos. Ignore all that crap about HOJ/aura/earthbind range. Just the 10 seconds in each video where he's casting chain heal.

On live: hair inside the 10 yrd range check = ch bounce. hair outside the 10 yrd range check = no ch bounce

On the ptr: hair inside the 10 yrd range check = ch bounce. hair outside the 10 yrd range check = no ch bounce

A 25% increase in jump radius should be blatantly obvious.

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Q u o t e:


Watch the videos. Ignore all that crap about HOJ/aura/earthbind range. Just the 10 seconds in each video where he's casting chain heal.

On live: hair inside the 10 yrd range check = ch bounce. hair outside the 10 yrd range check = no ch bounce

On the ptr: hair inside the 10 yrd range check = ch bounce. hair outside the 10 yrd range check = no ch bounce

A 25% increase in jump radius should be blatantly obvious.

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not to mention that if it's so hard to test or even notice it on different settings and contexts, its hard to argue for that being a significant positive change for the spell.

Why can't someone just do a test without DBM, then?

Use identical locations on PTR and live, preferably with easily recognizable floor patterns. Demonstrate max range by having a successful CH land, backing up a step and having CH fail to bounce. If the positioning is exactly the same on both, the range was not successfully buffed.

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Q u o t e:
Players: Ok, Chain heal bounces are increased by 2 yards, yet, it's not enough, here's why!

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Few problems with that.

1) There is no empirical data to back up such a claim because the changes if any exist are untested.
2) You're suggesting to make the same noise shamans have been making for months now. If it wasn't successful before, YOUR advice dictates finding a new approach...
3) This tactic is, at BEST, going to persuade devs. In other words, it fails to address any bugs that may exist that prevent CH range from being changed. So... they add another 2 (0) yards to the spell. Grats on winning another nonbuff ;-)

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Q u o t e:
Why can't someone just do a test without DBM, then?

Use identical locations on PTR and live, preferably with easily recognizable floor patterns. Demonstrate max range by having a successful CH land, backing up a step and having CH fail to bounce. If the positioning is exactly the same on both, the range was not successfully buffed.

Few problems with that.

1) There is no empirical data to back up such a claim because the changes if any exist are untested.
2) You're suggesting to make the same noise shamans have been making for months now. If it wasn't successful before, YOUR advice dictates finding a new approach...
3) This tactic is, at BEST, going to persuade devs. In other words, it fails to address any bugs that may exist that prevent CH range from being changed. So... they add another 2 (0) yards to the spell. Grats on winning another nonbuff ;-)

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It would be constructive if you'd read the thread before providing suggestions.



Etsuko, I totally get the urge to "I told you so", but what you're suggesting is still far closer to what we're trying to accomplish than you'd like to admit. If it's a bug, then it'll be fixed and we'll have to see how the change works on PTR before we know how it'll impact us. If it's an oversight on GC's part, then we've essentially been playtesting the change for an unknown amount of time, and its not been adequate; there's no need to theorycraft when we've had endless, disappointing in-game experience at ten yards. Either way, these threads have been constructive in either identifying a bug that would have otherwise gone unnoticed, or eliminating the need for a lot of speculation, and replacing it with hard experience.



GC, if you're still reading, please bear in mind that Noklar's spell comparisons are just one of many sources in the community's examination of the issue. Personally, I've not tested anything but chain heal itself, and still observed the same problem. I'm grateful that you're checking into it further, however, and am eagerly anticipating your response. I really hope that this all gets sorted out.

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Q u o t e:


It would be constructive if you'd read the thread before providing suggestions.

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Thanks for that. I'll keep it in mind in the future. In fact, I did read the majority of this thread. Perhaps I am too stupid to understand its content, and you will be gracious enough (I can only hope) to explain what I failed to grasp. I would find that constructive. I am especially confused because half your post is rewording what I said. Maybe we agreed but are passing eachother in the night.

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Q u o t e:
Thanks for that. I'll keep it in mind in the future. In fact, I did read the majority of this thread. Perhaps I am too stupid to understand its content, and you will be gracious enough (I can only hope) to explain what I failed to grasp. I would find that constructive.

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If you genuinely go through and read the thread, you'll find out exactly what I'm referring to.

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Q u o t e:


If you genuinely go through and read the thread, you'll find out exactly what I'm referring to.

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Why should I reread a thread I've been following for the past few days? So that you can satisfy your daily quota of condescension?

At least this post felt less like plagiarism than your last <3

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Q u o t e:
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww171/cityhunter0505/ChainHeal.jpg

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Thanks Etsuko. I'd say this is the most comepelling evidence I've seen that the range on CH hasn't been changed on the PTR. Probably a bug or oversight.

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Q u o t e:


You are making a lot of assumptions about how DBM measures range. We purposely do not make it easy for mods to estimate range because we want that to be a test of player skill and not have the mods play for you. You are also making some assumptions about how the ranges of various spells work. Areas, cones, chains and spells that just go from one caster to one target all work a little bit differently. You cannot use them effectively as rulers.



We do make mistakes, and we admit it all the time. I do not believe this is one of them. However, we can look at it yet again to at least satisfactorily explain to ourselves why your tests appear to not detect a difference.

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Either way, look at it this way, people use this to determine how far to stand apart, even though people only really need to be 8 yards apart. So for chain heal to be effective and to be able to jump to other people you need them to stand within a 2 yard window of each other, thats incredibly precise for not having the tools to properly determine range (or at least according to you, dbm doesn't do it quite accurately). That is a lot of work and a lot to pay attention to, just so shaman can use their aoe heal, other healing classes don't have to pay attention to it. I don't think making the range 15 yards would make chain heal super overpowered, it would bring it up to a reasonable level.

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Q u o t e:


No comment on HoJ being larger than Earthbind radius (10 yards)
No comment on Judgment being larger than Flare radius (10 yard)
No comment on how a paladin is able to heal outside of its 40 yard aura range with a 40 yard spell

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The range issue with the Paladin aura is worrying. Makes me wonder what else is bugged like that... Hmm I think I will go test my abilities on the PTR.

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Q u o t e:


The range issue with the Paladin aura is worrying. Makes me wonder what else is bugged like that... Hmm I think I will go test my abilities on the PTR.

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"Bugged" is a strong word for something like that. Different abilities have their ranges measured differently. Unless there is a compelling reason to change it (demonstrate that paladins NEED the aura to extend exactly the same range as their heals? good luck), it's not worth testing as it won't be changed.

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Q u o t e:


We do make mistakes, and we admit it all the time. I do not believe this is one of them. However, we can look at it yet again to at least satisfactorily explain to ourselves why your tests appear to not detect a difference.

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I don't belive you all made a mistake GC. I think the coder went in, changed an 8 to a 10 and checked the code in. Its a pretty simple fix. However, as stated above, we keep saying to you that 8 = 10. For whatever reason that is, and for the only ways we have to measure these things, it appears to use that 8 = 10. If that is the case and it is truely 10 on the PTR and 8 on live, then changing it to 10 didn't change anything and we need to have it changed to 12. If changing it to 12 doesn't change anything then we will have to try another number.

Regardless of why it is, the wow engine doesn't appear to differentiate 8 from 10 if it is indeed fixed on ptr.

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Q u o t e:
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww171/cityhunter0505/ChainHeal.jpg

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That is an absolutely fantastic test. The use of tiles as a ruler/distance standard was very clever. Had the change gone through properly, you'd expect to see at least another tile between jumps.

Excellent, excellent, excellent test.

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Q u o t e:
You are making a lot of assumptions about how DBM measures range. We purposely do not make it easy for mods to estimate range because we want that to be a test of player skill and not have the mods play for you. You are also making some assumptions about how the ranges of various spells work. Areas, cones, chains and spells that just go from one caster to one target all work a little bit differently. You cannot use them effectively as rulers.

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Whoa, what?

First of all, I'm not exactly sure what player skill and being able to tell how many yards something is in a virtual environment have in common. It's a very abstract concept to begin with!

Second... how could skilled players have ANY sense of space in the game if the spells aren't actually what YOU say they are????