World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> So, you made the block problem worse.

Idrilnénharm

< Conclave >

Dath'Remar

100. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 09:54:42 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

That wasn't the point of my statement at all. All I said is if they decide to reduce War/Pal avoidance, they can do it through the DR curves for avoidance stats. I said nothing about the relative balance between tanks.

While I see what you meant, messing with the DR curves poses its own scaling problem. The DR curves were implemented in the first place because avoidance becomes massively more powerful as you stack more of it. Going from 50% avoidance to 60% avoidance reduces your overall damage by 20%. Going from 70% avoidance to 80% avoidance reduces your overall damage by 33%. With the new DR curves it works out very closely to: x amount of avoidance rating reduces your overall damage by y amount ... regardless of how much avoidance you already had. Instead of scaling exponentially, it scales pretty consistently. (The line's a bit skewy at either extreme, but in any standard gear set, the basic point holds.) However, if you start slugging warriors and paladins with steeper DR curves, you end up with them receiving more from avoidance stats at t7 than they do from avoidance stats at t9.

Orgasha

Frostmane

101. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 09:59:17 AM PDT

I'm interested as to why warriors think block deserves a buff when the tanking classes are currently being balanced around block the way it is now.

Resity

< Lehman Brothers >

Black Dragonflight

102. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:01:11 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I'm interested as to why warriors think block deserves a buff when the tanking classes are currently being balanced around block the way it is now.

Because we aren't balanced, we are the worst mitigation tanks, the worst threat tanks, the worst at taking consistent damage.

They specifically aren't balancing warriors to even be on par in ANY area because they think we might be perceived as the only viable tanks again.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

Resity- Black Dragon Flight

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

103. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:01:50 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I am sorry, i used a WoW term incorrectly. That is my bad. It is true that as your gear improves your block "scales" up.

It's not a WoW term. Heck, this game has more than enough jargon as it is, and the community just likes to add more. I just didn't understand what you meant, but I get it now.

I will add one thing however. As I said above, we can see a model where block is a percentage of damage and that might eventually be the way we go. However, it is a conclusion the community often reaches that everything in the game needs to be a percent. We don't agree with that and we don't design the game that way. Your health doesn't increase by a percentage as you reach higher tiers -- it just increases by flat amounts as you acquire more gear (same as block value). The damage done by Devastate and Shield Slam and Heroic Strike all have flat components. Those are modified by attack power or shield block, but they still do not scale perfectly with boss health and damage. Your Heroic Strike doesn't hit harder just because the boss is bigger (unless you're talking about being flooded with rage or something), even though your parry avoids more damage when the boss is bigger.

Now, if we released twenty levels of raid content per expansion then these flat numbers would get to be a problem because they would be totally overwhelmed by the parts of the equation that did scale. But we don't do that. The flat part only has to last long enough to get us to the next character level increase where base stats and ability ranks will increase. Characters scale with level and the scaling with gear only has to last long enough to reach the next level cap. Make sense?

Put another way, if you could block for 20,000 damage, then it would be illogical to argue that block needed to be a percentage in order to be useful. It would an amazing stat and would remain an amazing stat until bosses started hitting for 200,000 damage... which is a long way off.

Again, this is not a declaration that we'll never change block. Just makes sure you're arguments are not strictly "it has to be a percentage or it won't work."

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

104. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:06:40 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
IMHO, the root problem here is that tank avoidance in entry-level raid gear is just too high. Since tanks can avoid so many hits, bosses have to hit that much harder to challenge the tanks' mitigation and challenge the healers. While this was sort of an okay situation in Naxx, avoidances have only gone up, and so in order to challenge the healers, now you have bosses hitting for 22k and spiking the tanks' health. In that scenario, block is pretty crummy.

The way I see it, block is strong when your tanks' "pure" avoidances are low, meaning bosses can be designed to hit fairly light. If your entry-level tanks have 40% avoidance, well... then the bosses have to hit hard to make up for that, and block will be weak. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I see a causal link here.

You're not crazy.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Resity

< Lehman Brothers >

Black Dragonflight

105. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:07:17 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

It's not a WoW term. Heck, this game has more than enough jargon as it is, and the community just likes to add more. I just didn't understand what you meant, but I get it now.

I will add one thing however. As I said above, we can see a model where block is a percentage of damage and that might eventually be the way we go. However, it is a conclusion the community often reaches that everything in the game needs to be a percent. We don't agree with that and we don't design the game that way. Your health doesn't increase by a percentage as you reach higher tiers -- it just increases by flat amounts as you acquire more gear (same as block value). The damage done by Devastate and Shield Slam and Heroic Strike all have flat components. Those are modified by attack power or shield block, but they still do not scale perfectly with boss health and damage. Your Heroic Strike doesn't hit harder just because the boss is bigger (unless you're talking about being flooded with rage or something), even though your parry avoids more damage when the boss is bigger.

Now, if we released twenty levels of raid content per expansion then these flat numbers would get to be a problem because they would be totally overwhelmed by the parts of the equation that did scale. But we don't do that. The flat part only has to last long enough to get us to the next character level increase where base stats and ability ranks will increase. Characters scale with level and the scaling with gear only has to last long enough to reach the next level cap. Make sense?

Put another way, if you could block for 20,000 damage, then it would be illogical to argue that block needed to be a percentage in order to be useful. It would an amazing stat and would remain an amazing stat until bosses started hitting for 200,000 damage... which is a long way off.

Again, this is not a declaration that we'll never change block. Just makes sure you're arguments are not strictly "it has to be a percentage or it won't work."

GC, a technical question about block design.

It was once said you wanted paladins to block smaller amounts all of the time, and warrior to block less but bigger amounts. Is that still a design goal or are we going to see, that shifting because it doesn't currently work like that?

Also I do agree that block doesn't need to be a %, but then again I honestly don't even think block needs to exist anymore without crushing blows. You could just bake block stats into shield armor which I think would make balancing easier,even if you aren't likely to take that route it is always a possibility.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

Resity- Black Dragon Flight

Josin

< Maniacal >

Steamwheedle Cartel

106. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:12:33 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

even though your parry avoids more damage when the boss is bigger.

And parry is one of the "competitors" with block. I agree that parry scales much more nicely than block. I think we all do. I also find myself more willing to take parry gear than block gear for this reason.

Q u o t e:

Again, this is not a declaration that we'll never change block. Just makes sure you're arguments are not strictly "it has to be a percentage or it won't work."

I don't think it HAS to be a percentage. But I think the curve on the scaling needs to be greater. Lower the cost of block value on gear, and ramp up the amount of block on higher tiers of gear to keep a bit more of a pace with the content.

Heck, most of my Tier tanking pieces don't even HAVE block value. For something you want us to utilize, that seems odd. It seems like even the item designers realized that avoidance was better to stack.

Prot Warriors have to gear for Hit, Expertise, Stam, Str, Dodge, Parry, Block, and Def. The other 3 classes can easily not concern themselves with 2-3 of the items from that list. -Thorke

Torgall

< Parapraxes >

Arygos

107. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:14:38 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Put another way, if you could block for 20,000 damage, then it would be illogical to argue that block needed to be a percentage in order to be useful. It would an amazing stat and would remain an amazing stat until bosses started hitting for 200,000 damage... which is a long way off.

Again, this is not a declaration that we'll never change block. Just makes sure you're arguments are not strictly "it has to be a percentage or it won't work."

Then lets put it this way. Block is not a mechanic that gets up to play its A game against hard hitting bosses (i.e. the content stats conscious tanks care about). That would be fine and has been fine when it was not a key feature that separate tanking styles.

Every other defensive ability you've designed in some way or another puts on its game face against hard hitting bosses. The amount of damage avoidance avoids is highest when the hits are strongest. The amount of damage armor mitigates is highest when the hits are the highest. Ditto defensive stance style passive reductions. Flat damage absorbs don't come to play on that scale, they are at their best when the situation is the safest.

There is nothing wrong with that design except....

It is the core mechanic that differentiates half the tanks from the other half of the tanks. When the mechanic that distinguishes two tank classes sucks against bosses, then you have probably made those classes comparatively suck against bosses.

A block fix doesn't need to be a percentage, but when the going gets tough, it needs to get going. Doubling the value is interesting but it doesn't fix the "performs the worst when you need it the most" problem.

The Impossibilities are Endless...

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

108. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:19:33 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I don't think it HAS to be a percentage. But I think the curve on the scaling needs to be greater. Lower the cost of block value on gear, and ramp up the amount of block on higher tiers of gear to keep a bit more of a pace with the content.

And for crikey's sake, make block reliable.

The cooldown reduction on block purported to be the 4pc t9 is simply a bandaid, and even with -20 sec to Shield Block you still have uptime and downtime.

Uptime & Downtime = bad, consistency = good, even if that consistency is a "middling" value between damage taken when block is up and damage taken when block is down. It's the same argument most of us were making about AC. 16k 24k 16k 24k versus 20k 20k 20k 20k.

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

Janana

< Tarren Mill Deathgua… >

Darkspear

109. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:21:50 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Again, this is not a declaration that we'll never change block. Just makes sure you're arguments are not strictly "it has to be a percentage or it won't work."

the funny thing is block is amazing @ lower tiers and heroics.

our warrior tanks in the guild with their block sets take fresh 80's alts-healers with like 1k spell power in greens and run them through instance and take virtually 0 dmg. they block most the hits, the only place where the alts have to do very much is on the final boss and most of the time they still dont do very much healing.

If i take em through a heroic, i get the carp beat out of me and they have to heal like no bodies business, but i have 40k health to tank with which helps... but alas we know what is happening to that.

Block needs to suck more on heroics and lower tiers and do more against harder hitting bosses. The fact that one of our warriors in his block set is gaining around 1500 putting him close to 4500 block value.

I think what most people mean when they talk about blocks not scaling is the fact that at lower tiers of content block is GOD-LIKE over 50% mitigation and by the time you get to Ulduar hards it's less then 5% mitigation. This bandaid change does nothing but increase the value at lower tiers and make it cloaser to 5% @ ulduar.

[ Post edited by Janana ]

Darkspear-US 80 B DK - Janana, 76 Druid Lilianara
Welcome to the tanking forums, where every thread turns into a whining contest between warriors, paladins, druids and death knights.

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

110. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:23:53 AM PDT

There was a very good suggestion earlier (it may have been in another thread) by somebody that basically said "You can block at most 20% of an incoming attack". Tweak the percentage as required, but if something like that was in place, block values could be tuned for raid boss attacks without fear of making warriors/paladins immortal to heroic and trash mobs.

It kind of makes sense, giving us some crazy amount of block value on gear, then capping it at a percentage of the incoming attack so that we don't just stroll through instances taking zero damage.

(Not that I dislike strolling through instances taking zero damage...)

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

Treela

< Serenity >

Ravencrest

112. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:27:30 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Now, if we released twenty levels of raid content per expansion then these flat numbers would get to be a problem because they would be totally overwhelmed by the parts of the equation that did scale. But we don't do that. The flat part only has to last long enough to get us to the next character level increase where base stats and ability ranks will increase. Characters scale with level and the scaling with gear only has to last long enough to reach the next level cap. Make sense?

You don't need 20 tiers of raid content to see that differences in scaling DO exhibit a problem -- the RELATIVE value of different abilities changes as you progress. You may not see it as a problem, but many players do, as exhibited by Block Value and this thread. Good design would be that the relative values of my Power Word: Shield spell and Flash Heal spell remain constant with respect to each other. This should be true of all abilities.

It's not part of your design, however, and I see that as a design flaw.

Suzushiro

< Raze >

Winterhoof

113. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:36:47 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
the funny thing is block is amazing @ lower tiers and heroics.

our warrior tanks in the guild with their block sets take fresh 80's alts-healers with like 1k spell power in greens and run them through instance and take virtually 0 dmg. they block most the hits, the only place where the alts have to do very much is on the final boss and most of the time they still dont do very much healing.

If i take em through a heroic, i get the carp beat out of me and they have to heal like no bodies business, but i have 40k health to tank with which helps... but alas we know what is happening to that.

Block needs to suck more on heroics and lower tiers and do more against harder hitting bosses. The fact that one of our warriors in his block set is gaining around 1500 putting him close to 4500 block value.

Which is of course how we got into the tanking conundrum of DKs being OP in the first place, because everyone thought shield tanks would be king due to what they were seeing in low content (not just low LK content, really, a lot of high-end BC bosses like Brutallus and Illidan dual-wielded which made block valuable there too) so they buffed DKs to help them keep up, so once people got to the content level where block became garbage DKs were too good.

Honestly it's kind of a crappy situation either way- as it is right now, block is OP in some situations and garbage in others (and of course most of the bosses where tank survivability is a big factor are the ones where block fails,) but on the other hand you don't want to change it into another carbon copy of dodge/parry or armor either.

"These forums are as much an indicator of the players' happiness as a hospital is an indicator of public health." -Feoria of Shadowmoon

Justikhar

Twisting Nether

114. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:37:18 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
There was a very good suggestion earlier (it may have been in another thread) by somebody that basically said "You can block at most 20% of an incoming attack". Tweak the percentage as required, but if something like that was in place, block values could be tuned for raid boss attacks without fear of making warriors/paladins immortal to heroic and trash mobs.

It kind of makes sense, giving us some crazy amount of block value on gear, then capping it at a percentage of the incoming attack so that we don't just stroll through instances taking zero damage.

(Not that I dislike strolling through instances taking zero damage...)

This seems like a pretty good idea at face value. We should take note however that the T9 gear has already been introduced and the T9 content is likely just being polished up. As such, all these things are for the next expansion. Good to get the ideas out early though if they are going to make it to testing pre-expansion.

"DKs were made with several years of feedback, while other classes are stuck with archaic features that are just now getting looked at." ~ GC

Resity

< Lehman Brothers >

Black Dragonflight

115. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:40:14 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

This seems like a pretty good idea at face value. We should take note however that the T9 gear has already been introduced and the T9 content is likely just being polished up. As such, all these things are for the next expansion. Good to get the ideas out early though if they are going to make it to testing pre-expansion.

Which means next expansion by the same logic better apply to warriors being kept better because we don't want the other classes to be seen as the only tanks and warriors as non-viable like now.

I will welcome the new warrior overlord tanks next expansion, instead of balanced ones this expansion I guess.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

Resity- Black Dragon Flight

Heleth

< Twisted by Design >

Feathermoon

116. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:46:49 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:

IMHO, the root problem here is that tank avoidance in entry-level raid gear is just too high. Since tanks can avoid so many hits, bosses have to hit that much harder to challenge the tanks' mitigation and challenge the healers. While this was sort of an okay situation in Naxx, avoidances have only gone up, and so in order to challenge the healers, now you have bosses hitting for 22k and spiking the tanks' health. In that scenario, block is pretty crummy.

The way I see it, block is strong when your tanks' "pure" avoidances are low, meaning bosses can be designed to hit fairly light. If your entry-level tanks have 40% avoidance, well... then the bosses have to hit hard to make up for that, and block will be weak. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I see a causal link here.

You're not crazy.

The fact remains, this is the situation we find ourselves in. I don't see you reitemizing all the gear and adjusting all the bosses, so that leaves block as totally lackluster on anything but trash. Even with the proposed change we won't be seeing significant help for the blocking tank community in terms of boss encounters.

In my current gear (if I put on the terrible prot pally t8 shoulders) I have 1378 block rating, after the change i'll gain about ... 348 block value. How is that supposed to help when the boss hits me for 20k?

[ Post edited by Heleth ]

Salzia

< Outlandish Fortune >

Cenarion Circle

117. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:53:16 AM PDT

A substantial change to the block mechanic will probably make the itemzation team all quit. Think about if they really change this thing fundamentally all those items from level 20 blue crud all the way to current content might have to have some tweaking to make them worthwhile. Caster items had change similar to this and it was big deal so my guess is they would like to change the mechanic to offer more value against a boss and avoid having to revisit a million loot tables and to that I say good luck.

I will comment that I dont want to be having to wear a bunch of bizzaro world non tiered pieces to cobble together a set that works because while I do have a trash set I would hate for that kind of drop scenario to become my goal.

Heleth

< Twisted by Design >

Feathermoon

118. Re: So, you made the block problem worse. 06/24/2009 10:55:57 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
A substantial change to the block mechanic will probably make the itemzation team all quit. Think about if they really change this thing fundamentally all those items from level 20 blue crud all the way to current content might have to have some tweaking to make them worthwhile. Caster items had change similar to this and it was big deal so my guess is they would like to change the mechanic to offer more value against a boss and avoid having to revisit a million loot tables and to that I say good luck.

I will comment that I dont want to be having to wear a bunch of bizzaro world non tiered pieces to cobble together a set that works because while I do have a trash set I would hate for that kind of drop scenario to become my goal.

I'm not sure why a computational change of block value to block value rating that equates to a percent damage reductions (all other tank avoidance mechanics are % based) that scales with level is such a huge ordeal. It's really more about testing and finding what the right scaling curve is.

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