First, I'm not trolling for a blue post. I really don't want one. There's really nothing to be said, and a blue post invariably makes a thread become a rockstar 40 page long thread of massive flamefest where people completely ignore the OP's point, be it good or bad (and I acknowledge my point probably is bad).

Second, GC is not an idiot. He is not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. You don't get to his position and be stupid. Making disparaging remarks about him, his intelligence, or his ancestry does nothing at all to help you make your point in any way, and in fact, it only serves to make you much easier to ignore.

Third, blizz does not hate warriors. They don't hate priests. They don't hate mages, or shaman, or hunters. They don't hate any class.

What they do hate is distribution imbalances. This is a quote from a post GC made today:

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I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.

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I quoted it all to try to keep the context, which is kind of difficult w/o reposting the original post, but that's too big a wall of text.

The point is this - tanks, be they warriors, dks, pallies or druids, seem to me to be very deliberate people in general. And, to me, and I may be off base here, we seem to be less susceptible to fotm rerolls.

So the problem that I see, is that blizz doesn't like that a plurality, or perhaps even a majority of tanks are warriors. But tanks aren't likely to reroll based on minor fluctuations on who's the better tank for short periods of time. What this implies, again, to me, is that warriors are going to see their viability slowly diminish, either through other classes being buffed, or our class being nerfed, until the distribution rights itself - which is wholly incongruous with the deliberate manner of being that, I feel, all good tanks share.

GC said we shouldn't interpret what he said as "suck it up, warriors." But I don't see how you can possibly, by any stretch of the imagination, square that with "but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular?"

GC, if you do read this, again, please don't post. I don't think there's a positive thing you can say. I don't mean that in a bad way, I think you're in your own painted in corner (and you're not the one that did the painting), and don't have much choice in the matter yourself. But I do have to ask that you keep in mind that you're eventually going to be successful in obtaining a measure of parity in numbers of tanks if you really really want to do that. But the way you're going to do that is to break the back of the warrior class, and to KEEP it broken for an extended period of time. I truly hope that's not your plan.

AND NOTHING OF VALUE WAS LOST

Massive overreaction and QQ just like GC said doesn't help anyone. /sigh

I too have been really worried about this myself. It seems that us warriors are all alike, Stubborn as hell and too proud to reroll any other class (I personally love that about us though). I highly doubt Blizzard would ever break our backs and continue to do nothing about it. GC posting a lot about it is in itself a message to us that they really haven't forgot about us at all and that eventually they WILL help bring us in line with the other tank classes.

I do want to say though, I'm perfectly ok with not being able to tank certain encounters due to a class having a slight (keyword there) advantage for the encounter. I would like warriors to be buffed but as GC said, I really dont want to be overbuffed too. I'm positive GC and the rest of the devs will find that medium in between and we can all stop our qq'ing. I think alot of the qq stems from the fact that the Death Knight class has THE best cooldowns in the game for a tank as a baseline ability. I hope that with the well deserved changes to those cooldowns that some of us warriors will finally back off and realize that if it wasnt for those abilities being so OP we would actually be more in line with the other tanks than we originally thought.

Regardless of what the outcome might be I will always find a way to be the best tank I can. I will never reroll to another class just to tank, I'm too damn stubborn to do that, but I can guarantee you that I will always find a way. If even just a few of us Protection Warriors think the same then we will never be finished =)

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I too have been really worried about this myself. It seems that us warriors are all alike, Stubborn as hell and too proud to reroll any other class (I personally love that about us though). I highly doubt Blizzard would ever break our backs and continue to do nothing about it. GC posting a lot about it is in itself a message to us that they really haven't forgot about us at all and that eventually they WILL help bring us in line with the other tank classes.

I do want to say though, I'm perfectly ok with not being able to tank certain encounters due to a class having a slight (keyword there) advantage for the encounter. I would like warriors to be buffed but as GC said, I really dont want to be overbuffed too. I'm positive GC and the rest of the devs will find that medium in between and we can all stop our qq'ing. I think alot of the qq stems from the fact that the Death Knight class has THE best cooldowns in the game for a tank as a baseline ability. I hope that with the well deserved changes to those cooldowns that some of us warriors will finally back off and realize that if it wasnt for those abilities being so OP we would actually be more in line with the other tanks than we originally thought.

Regardless of what the outcome might be I will always find a way to be the best tank I can. I will never reroll to another class just to tank, I'm too damn stubborn to do that, but I can guarantee you that I will always find a way. If even just a few of us Protection Warriors think the same then we will never be finished =)

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The problem here is that when is it going to happen? When should it happen? Should it have happened already?

Consider how long ago the first blue post saying that our mechanics were indeed needing to be looked at. This was WAY before 3.1 even came to the PTR. The problem is that, blizzard not doing anything cause they are afraid to over buff us, even though noone is asking for a big buff just a normalization of our mechanics to be productive, not counter productive, is worse than trying to solve issues, to test what can be done about it.

I find the whole, so and so mechanic comes up in meetings every now and again, doesnt tell me much about what blizzard is, or is not doing. Because with the amount of talent they have, they could of easily made changes to the warrior class by now between the 6-10 months it was first released as a real issue by blues, and yet they havent, and their excuse, hope warriors remember this one, in 3.1 was that they did not have enough time in the PTR to be able to test warrior mechanics. yet testing in the ptr went on for a very long time.

They will eventualy have to buff us to be on par with other tanks, the only issue is, WHEN will they? and IMO it will be probly around 4.0 when they want to keep the warrior population playing the game and to buy the nest expansion.

Over-reaction much?

Everyone just needs to take a chill-pill and relax.

GC has repeatedly stated that the goal is to have 4 viable tanking classes. Yes, 4. That means warriors, druids, paladins and DKs. They're not going to destroy one of those tanking classes just to make other people play the other 3. If you believe that they are, then I suggest you remove your tinfoil hat.

I understand being worried, but we're arguing about such tiny differences now that it's not a big issue. If DKs couldn't trivialize Mimiron P1 and General, all tanks would be pretty darn close. At the very very worst, you'll still be able to tank all the bosses, you won't be placing an undue burden on your raid, and choosing another tank won't make or break your raid. They've done a very good job balancing tanks. You don't have to convince people why you should be the one tanking, and you aren't limited artificially.

It feels fairly close right now, and I think it's a safe bet that things won't be like they were for non-Warriors pre-WotLK. As a tank, you should be the skilled guy that your guild knows, and that should be enough. There will always be the "best tank," it's just by such a small margin now that it doesn't matter. Heck, DKs are too powerful now and GC just posted that there are a ton of Warrior tanks. That should be proof enough that, even acknowledging your issues, Warriors are pretty close.

Basically, I think we're all gonna have to deal with "pretty close." There will always be one that's "the best," and it'll probably ping-pong, but with the way things are designed, "pretty close" is enough anyway.

I highly doubt Blizzard ever buffs or nerfs based solely on population. Over/underpopulation of a class may be due to them being in need of a buff/nerf, but even then the power of FotM isn't *that* strong. I honestly don't think they could use buffs/nerfs to make any particularly drastic change in class population if they tried. Some people aren't going to reroll no matter how green the grass may look on the other side (conversely, some people will reroll even if the grass looks almost-undetectably greener, but that doesn't immediately mean that there's a problem.)

The point wasn't that they were deliberately gimping warriors to even out the tank population. The point was that warriors were claiming that they needed buffs badly because they were being replaced by death knights, and GC countered that warriors were *not* being replaced by DKs but were in fact still the most popular tank class, partially because the gap wasn't as bad as the QQers were pretending it was and partially because in most cases FotM wasn't a strong enough force to get people to bench/reroll their longtime warrior MTs. Therefore the idea that warrior tanks needed buffs in order to keep them from disappearing from raids was wrong in two ways, both in the assumption that they were in danger of going away and in the assumption that nerfing/buffing them would make a particularly huge impact at all.

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I understand being worried, but we're arguing about such tiny differences now that it's not a big issue. If DKs couldn't trivialize Mimiron P1 and General, all tanks would be pretty darn close. At the very very worst, you'll still be able to tank all the bosses, you won't be placing an undue burden on your raid, and choosing another tank won't make or break your raid. They've done a very good job balancing tanks. You don't have to convince people why you should be the one tanking, and you aren't limited artificially.

It feels fairly close right now, and I think it's a safe bet that things won't be like they were for non-Warriors pre-WotLK. As a tank, you should be the skilled guy that your guild knows, and that should be enough. There will always be the "best tank," it's just by such a small margin now that it doesn't matter. Heck, DKs are too powerful now and GC just posted that there are a ton of Warrior tanks. That should be proof enough that, even acknowledging your issues, Warriors are pretty close.

Basically, I think we're all gonna have to deal with "pretty close." There will always be one that's "the best," and it'll probably ping-pong, but with the way things are designed, "pretty close" is enough anyway.

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Its not about being the best, or being completely equal in abilities. Its about fixing mechanics that are based on old systems.

Why is it ok that for the longest time, warriors scale down with better gear instead of better scaling? Why is it that a rage dump mechanic is currently a need to be somewhat competitive with other classes? Why is it ok that warrior tanks have to rely on other people to increase their own threat? Why is it ok that if i dont get hit or i get a avoidance run i cant do anything but white swing and try to look pretty?

This is what we want, not buffs, just a update on crap mechanics that should have been fixed months ago that blizzard wont fix.

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The problem here is that when is it going to happen? When should it happen? Should it have happened already?

Consider how long ago the first blue post saying that our mechanics were indeed needing to be looked at. This was WAY before 3.1 even came to the PTR. The problem is that, blizzard not doing anything cause they are afraid to over buff us, even though noone is asking for a big buff just a normalization of our mechanics to be productive, not counter productive, is worse than trying to solve issues, to test what can be done about it.

I find the whole, so and so mechanic comes up in meetings every now and again, doesnt tell me much about what blizzard is, or is not doing. Because with the amount of talent they have, they could of easily made changes to the warrior class by now between the 6-10 months it was first released as a real issue by blues, and yet they havent, and their excuse, hope warriors remember this one, in 3.1 was that they did not have enough time in the PTR to be able to test warrior mechanics. yet testing in the ptr went on for a very long time.

They will eventualy have to buff us to be on par with other tanks, the only issue is, WHEN will they? and IMO it will be probly around 4.0 when they want to keep the warrior population playing the game and to buy the nest expansion.

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Hehe, yet another thing I've been reallly worried about and it too is a very valid point. While we as warriors realize Blizzard devs have a lot on their plate already, we really do have to ask, when are we going to see some changes? We're nearing 3.2 which means that WotLK is already almost over and things are going to have to come to a head. I personally wont be leading any charge against Blizzard demanding buffs but I'm the more passive type of Warrior. Others don't share my same temper and will no doubt demand answers very soon. If GC is reading this by some off chance (dont post lol) Please take note that warriors do need some changes and most of us wont sit quietly by as the expansion rolls on and nothing happens.

Also, totally off topic, a stalker van just slowly rolled by my neighbors house and she runs a daycare.... Should I be concerned?

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I highly doubt Blizzard ever buffs or nerfs based solely on population. Over/underpopulation of a class may be due to them being in need of a buff/nerf, but even then the power of FotM isn't *that* strong. I honestly don't think they could use buffs/nerfs to make any particularly drastic change in class population if they tried. Some people aren't going to reroll no matter how green the grass may look on the other side (conversely, some people will reroll even if the grass looks almost-undetectably greener, but that doesn't immediately mean that there's a problem.)

The point wasn't that they were deliberately gimping warriors to even out the tank population. The point was that warriors were claiming that they needed buffs badly because they were being replaced by death knights, and GC countered that warriors were *not* being replaced by DKs but were in fact still the most popular tank class, partially because the gap wasn't as bad as the QQers were pretending it was and partially because in most cases FotM wasn't a strong enough force to get people to bench/reroll their longtime warrior MTs. Therefore the idea that warrior tanks needed buffs in order to keep them from disappearing from raids was wrong in two ways, both in the assumption that they were in danger of going away and in the assumption that nerfing/buffing them would make a particularly huge impact at all.

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The only reason WHY warriors are so popular atm is because we have been around since vanilla as tanks, We also were the ONLY viable tanks for the longest time. Also at that time people took their tanks more seriously and stuck by them until now, so they have grown attached to the character they have had for years. its not because the gap isnt as big as people make it out to be, its because we have a way bigger tanking history than any other tank, thus have a bigger population.

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Over-reaction much?

Everyone just needs to take a chill-pill and relax.

GC has repeatedly stated that the goal is to have 4 viable tanking classes. Yes, 4. That means warriors, druids, paladins and DKs. They're not going to destroy one of those tanking classes just to make other people play the other 3. If you believe that they are, then I suggest you remove your tinfoil hat.

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But they can keep warriors 4th out of 4. All the tanks are equal, but Ulduar Heroic modes show some are more equal than others. If they maintain the current status quo, you'll see a reduction in the warrior community.

GC's statement makes it very clear why warrior changes havn't been made in the last 6-9 months and why DK's were nerfed to Warrior/Pally levels after they became too popular.

For 6-9 months GC said DK's are fine. As soon as they became too abundant in in heroic Ulduar, all of a sudden they were OP.

The entire WoW community knew of the imbalances in EH/Armor/CD's based on sarth 3d. Sarth 3D was an issue 6 months ago. GC said it's ok if some tanks are better than others on a limited number of encounters. Then they go design ulduar hard mode which makes DK the only real option.

I have no faith that Blizzard knows what it's doing, or in the alternative, that it has any intention of balancing the classes. Their definition of a balanced game is premised on class representation, not game mechanics.

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Also, totally off topic, a stalker van just slowly rolled by my neighbors house and she runs a daycare.... Should I be concerned?

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yes

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Also, totally off topic, a stalker van just slowly rolled by my neighbors house and she runs a daycare.... Should I be concerned?

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I've already tracked your IP and called the cops... GL

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I've already tracked your IP and called the cops... GL

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correct me if I'm mistaken, but IP does not indicate actual location; the closest you can get is city/state

thx tho

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correct me if I'm mistaken, but IP does not indicate actual location; the closest you can get is city/state

thx tho

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Way to be a debbie downer

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I'm going to comment on this just once, lest we re-start the entire other thread. I am not personally going to address any other warrior issues in this thread.

-- Warriors are very popular main tanks.
-- This is probably because they used to be the best tank (by design) and because many MTs have stuck with the class for many levels.
-- We think they are slightly under-powered in Ulduar relative to other tanks.
-- If we are not careful and buff warriors too much then there are going to be more of them, which only feeds into the perception that warriors are designed to be (or should be designed to be) the best tank.
-- We've worked very hard to make sure there are 4 viable tanks, just as we've worked very hard to make sure there are 5 viable healers. We want to have paladins, druids and DKs tanking Coliseum, and not giving up (or being replaced by the raid leader) because they aren't warriors.
-- We don't balance around popularity. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a social game and despite the excellent work by the theorycrafting community, player perception and psychology play a big role and often change very slowly.
-- We don't balance around past history. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a game and players can form an emotional attachment to their characters. Emotion enters into it. While my team deals with cold hard numbers a lot, that is not the only part of game design.

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Wow I think if you would have posted that in the other thread not nearly as much overreaction would have occured. I think GC just redeemed himself