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Q u o t e:


Lets see, 900 Spirit. 10% = 90 Spirit.

Twisted Fate grants 10% of Spirit as Spell power

That means a decently geared raiding Shadow priest will grant 9 Spell power for 8 seconds. If you save 5 seconds of pushback over the course of an entire fight, you would probably match if not pass the 9 SP boost you can from imp Spirit tap.

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Please re-read my comment. I did not say take it over improved shadowform. I compared it to Improved Vampiric Embrace. It is a dps increase just like improved shadowform helps maintain your dps. Improved Vampiric Embrace is simply a choice you can spec into if your aim is more utility than dmg.

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Q u o t e:


I hear glyph of power word: shield pwns

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Just because he is flamming doesn't mean we should flame him. I'm not trying to make him feel bad, I'm just hopping to impart what I know about shadow priests to others to learn and improve themselves.

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Q u o t e:


I hear glyph of power word: shield pwns

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When someone makes absolutely no use from MF glyph, it is actually good.

Especially with no healing priest.

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Q u o t e:
I want to point out that developers would probably answer questions more often if there weren't so many responses of "LOL they said this spell is good when I think it's bad!" Save the trash talking for the Arena. Insulting the people who design the game might make you feel important but it won't do much for actually convincing us to make any changes. I'm totally cool if you disagree with us on, say the value of Dispersion. Where your argument fails is going to "You disagree with us, therefore you are dumb and don't understand WoW." That's weak. Be adults if you post here.

I'm sorry my comment about MC confused people. I have to think of everything in terms of PvP and PvE and I slipped into a PvE answer on a PvP question. It is very potent CC in 5-player dungeons. I don't think it's worthless in PvP, though I admit it's situational.

We don't think Bloodlust and Replenishment are comparable. Raids were called in Karazhan for lack of a Shadow Priest. Mana is just too valuable even with content on farm. Bloodlust is fun, but rarely means the difference between success and failure unless you're really on the cutting edge of fights you can handle. Even then, one spec brought Replenishment while 3 have always brought Bloodlust. Even today, you need multiple sources of Replenishment for a 25-player raid, while more than one Bloodlust is wasted.

We'll consider a Devouring Plague a no-cooldown, limit-one implementation. I'm pretty sure it's only set up that way because it used to be a racial and those were supposed to be infrequent.

I also suspect Psychic Horror has a travel time because it was most likely cloned from Death Coil. We'll look into changing it.

We have at least one other exciting Shadow PvP change, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it yet. It's not Dispersion (which we still think is fine).

On all of these points, the designers had already discussed them and made changes accordingly based on the threads that occurred on this and other forums. We just hadn't communicated the changes yet. Releasing information in a forum thread like this is risky for reasons such as:

1) It gets buried.
2) Our forums in languages other than English get the info second-hand, while we like to release big news simultaneously.
3) Players sometimes respond like jerks, forcing us to spend effort on moderation that we otherwise wouldn't have to spend.
4) Players complain that we answered the wrong thread or the wrong questions, when really all we're doing is trying to find a suitable thread in which to address the issue.
5) Other classes feel neglected or ignored.
6) It confuses the whole policy on fishing for blues.

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Thanks again for posting GC -- I particularly appriciate you answering my question about replenishement vs Bloodlust. Intisght into why you make something a certain way is always appriciated.

Again, I want to reiterate that this kind of communication -- dialogue, with both sides posting, is what is absolutely amazing. Whatever I agree/disagree with, this is what should be happening. Thanks for taking the time to post here.

I would, however, like to point out why dispersion is weak:

We are playing in a bursty environment (something I'm not entirely convinced will change in 3.2, even with the advent of the much anticipated resil changes). In a world of CoS to immune fears, AMS to avoid PH, AMZ go avoid magical burst, and bubble to avoid peels so that a ret and rogue can work me over, dispersion is lackluster.

We are unable to use our 51 pt talent offensively, and all we've got, really, is offense. If you'd look at almost all of the succesful TBC shadowpriests, they were doing well because they were playing retardedly offensive. They got the bare minimum of resil/HP, and stacked the %@%@ out of spellpower. The same is true in WotLK -- I'm succesful in arena when I can stay offensive, and not forced out of form to heal and lose tons and tons of spell damage buffs.

One more: From a PvE standpoint, do you like where shadowpriests damage is going to be in 3.2 with the THEN current set of gear? If no, what are you (as a company) planning on doing to fix such problems?

Once again, thanks for posting.

EDIT:

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Q u o t e:
That's it? One fight?

That one fight that is also extremely healing intensive, where any extra healing is welcomed? That's your argument? Even if you would name any other AoE fights, VE is still a lot more useful to your raid as a whole and 2 talents that prevents pushback, sometimes.

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Can you really not think of ANY other fights that have AOE damage? Do you want me to list them all? There are others. If you require, I will list them, I just didn't think it was necessary.

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Q u o t e:


Just because he is flamming doesn't mean we should flame him. I'm not trying to make him feel bad, I'm just hopping to impart what I know about shadow priests to others to learn and improve themselves.

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She is not trying to flame anyone, you tell people they can't count when obviously you just did not read what was said.

I just find it ridiculous that so many priests claim that Imp SF is such a must over Imp. VE, while none of them can find me a situation where it is useful, while Imp. VE is not.

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Q u o t e:


Please re-read my comment. I did not say take it over improved shadowform. I compared it to Improved Vampiric Embrace. It is a dps increase just like improved shadowform helps maintain your dps. Improved Vampiric Embrace is simply a choice you can spec into if you're aim is more utility than dmg.

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Ok, so now you are debating the merits of imp VE over imp SF? I have both of them.
If you are debating the merits of imp Spirit Tap over Imp VE then you have some sort of justification. My response is thus: 9 Spellpower for 8 seconds every 35-50 seconds or so is not better than keeping myself alive to dps longer.

Back a little bit more on topic: thank you GC for your answers, but I am still taking off Dispersion for Inner Focus, if the amount of SP that takes the talent is what tells you it is great.

Inner focus will actually slightly boost my dps, and will give me mana back too, and I will actually use it. I know, I know this is probably something that is done ... but have you checked how many priests actually use it? I know I use it maybe once per 2-3 raid nights.

Edit: 2nd first in the same thread, nice XD

I know you think dispersion is fine, but if I can say 1 argument that might be that is one of the most important: it's not fun ...

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Q u o t e:


She is not trying to flame anyone, you tell people they can't count when obviously you just did not read what was said.

I just find it ridiculous that so many priests claim that Imp SF is such a must over Imp. VE, while none of them can find me a situation where it is useful, while Imp. VE is not.

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I have never claimed imp SF to be a MUST. As shadow priests (in my mind) we have 3 talents that are up in the air. Imp SF, Imp VE, and Imp Spirit Tap. I picked Imp SF, and Imp VE over spirit tap.

You want a situation when its useful? How about Thorim's Blizzards? I originally picked it up so I could keep MC up on the Warbringer for longer without having to recast it. It was meant to be a temporary change just for Thorim. However, my dps received a significant boost, and my mana never became a problem. Thus the talent stuck in my spec.

Imp SF has nearly ZERO use in pve. Nearly.


Sure there might be a fight or two when it might help... a little.

IMP VE. IMP Spirit tap.

End of story

The two biggest concerns I have are shadow priest damage (which shouldn't be a surprise because every class is concerned about damage) and raid utility.

I'll deal with raid utility first. It is okay that many classes have replenishment. It is not okay that of treplenishment options available that there are clear superiors. My favorite example is Destro Warlocks. They do a lot more damage per second than a shadow priest (on single and mulit target), and bring their best buff. In 25-man raids there will already be a healing priest of some kind, so shadow priest utility is almost nil, comparitively.

I would really like to see some kind of buff to VE. That seems be the only mechanic that fits the kit of a shadow priests as they are today.

About raid damage, I have a few comments. I think that our single target damage is too low, compared especially to other hybrids. In my guild, my boomkin, who still stays in T7 gear for the set bonus, can still beat me even though I'm in 4-piece T8.

There is a reason that on every entry-level piece of content that DoT classes do extremely well, and then fade off as time goes on. DoT's get overscaled off of spell damage, and now crit, and haste really only buffs filler spells like Mind Flay or Shadow Bolt. Find a good way to buff the filler spells and you'll fix haste scaling for shadow priests without having haste apply to DoTs.

Also, Shadow Priests are not good at things like Sparks on XT, Roots on Freya+3; our damage is too slow. We are good at things like Yogg-Tentacles and (in some cases) Eonar's Gift because our GCDs spent casting DoTs matter. The problem is that there are not many features of boss fights that are supposed to be alive for 12-30 seconds. Things that can survive that long either come in exhausting numbers, or are almost inconsequential.

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Q u o t e:
I want to point out that developers would probably answer questions more often if there weren't so many responses of "LOL they said this spell is good when I think it's bad!" Save the trash talking for the Arena. Insulting the people who design the game might make you feel important but it won't do much for actually convincing us to make any changes. I'm totally cool if you disagree with us on, say the value of Dispersion. Where your argument fails is going to "You disagree with us, therefore you are dumb and don't understand WoW." That's weak. Be adults if you post here.

I'm sorry my comment about MC confused people. I have to think of everything in terms of PvP and PvE and I slipped into a PvE answer on a PvP question. It is very potent CC in 5-player dungeons. I don't think it's worthless in PvP, though I admit it's situational.

We don't think Bloodlust and Replenishment are comparable. Raids were called in Karazhan for lack of a Shadow Priest. Mana is just too valuable even with content on farm. Bloodlust is fun, but rarely means the difference between success and failure unless you're really on the cutting edge of fights you can handle. Even then, one spec brought Replenishment while 3 have always brought Bloodlust. Even today, you need multiple sources of Replenishment for a 25-player raid, while more than one Bloodlust is wasted.

We'll consider a Devouring Plague a no-cooldown, limit-one implementation. I'm pretty sure it's only set up that way because it used to be a racial and those were supposed to be infrequent.

I also suspect Psychic Horror has a travel time because it was most likely cloned from Death Coil. We'll look into changing it.

We have at least one other exciting Shadow PvP change, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it yet. It's not Dispersion (which we still think is fine).

On all of these points, the designers had already discussed them and made changes accordingly based on the threads that occurred on this and other forums. We just hadn't communicated the changes yet. Releasing information in a forum thread like this is risky for reasons such as:

1) It gets buried.
2) Our forums in languages other than English get the info second-hand, while we like to release big news simultaneously.
3) Players sometimes respond like jerks, forcing us to spend effort on moderation that we otherwise wouldn't have to spend.
4) Players complain that we answered the wrong thread or the wrong questions, when really all we're doing is trying to find a suitable thread in which to address the issue.
5) Other classes feel neglected or ignored.
6) It confuses the whole policy on fishing for blues.

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Thank you for your time, GC. And for some clarification. Please don't let the loudest Shadow Priests (After you gave us information, not the ones who were the loudest before.) make you trigger shy about communications with the community. I believe most Shadow Priests are ecstatic to get some info and will simply take this and continue to discuss it among ourselves, not try to throw it in your face.

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Q u o t e:


Ok, so now you are debating the merits of imp VE over imp SF? I have both of them.
If you are debating the merits of imp Spirit Tap over Imp VE then you have some sort of justification. My response is thus: 9 Spellpower for 8 seconds every 35-50 seconds or so is not better than keeping myself alive to dps longer.

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I am not debating the merits of anything. You asked if someone could find fault in your spec. The suggestion I gave is more of a dps choice, while the spec you enjoy focuses more on utility through imp VE.

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Q u o t e:
Imp SF has nearly ZERO use in pve. Nearly.


Sure there might be a fight or two when it might help... a little.

IMP VE. IMP Spirit tap.

End of story

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<3

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Q u o t e:
Imp SF has nearly ZERO use in pve. Nearly.


Sure there might be a fight or two when it might help... a little.

IMP VE. IMP Spirit tap.

End of story

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Its not end of story, But you are 100% entitled to spec and play your class however you choose.

Thanks for the follow up post GC, again i think you'll find a big complaint about dispersion is that it doesn't feel like a bang for your buck sort of talent. See my previous post where I mention people take the talent cause well where else would you put 1 talent point.

Anyway there are tonnes of ways you could change the talent to be more beneficial, however due to your recent changes to innervate i'd imagine you'd go with mana return halved and cd halved. Provided it does it's job in pve (ie make it work on iron roots) then you will be adding a nice bit of pvp and pve survival.

Additionally in the warlock Q&A you mentioned the lack of 'burst' available to affliction, I do not expect you to address shadowpriest burst in this forum, but i'll point out this is by far one of the biggest questions shadow priests have, it would be good to keep that in mind.

Also on the note of bloodlust, that feels like it could easily be shared by warriors, i mean they already have things like battle shout. While off topic bloodlust is still pretty vital for people learning 10 man hardmodes but I do agree it isn't vital.

The DP issue is that if you miss DP then you lose 10-15% dps straight up, and if it isn't available say for XT's heart you really lose a good chunk of dps.

In the warlock Q&A you mention that affliction is lacking in dps, Wow only has one other dot class and that is shadow priests. I think it is time for haste to work on dots, the change is simple as i'm sure you'd know, apply the percentage modifier to the tick associated to the dot and the length of the spell. I would dearly love to hear about some internal testing on this because it will basically solve the dot classes dps. In particular concern to warlocks it would be best to allow haste on dots to only work when specced into haunt, and for shadow priests attatch it to shadow form. Basically solving your issue about other specs/classes taking advantage of a change that is needed for two weak specs.

Feedback provided is much appreciated, looking forward to hearing from you again

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Q u o t e:


I am not debating the merits of anything. You asked if someone could find fault in your spec. The suggestion I gave is more of a dps choice, while the spec you enjoy focuses more on utility through imp VE.

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On the numbers it would show a miniscule increase in Spellpower. Are you right about Imp Spirit Tap being more dps? Yes. How much more dps? Almost nothing.

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Q u o t e:


<3

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lol

<3

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Q u o t e:
No. We want the 51-pointers to be very attractive, but not necessarily the most powerful talent in the tree. A great number, if not a majority, of Shadow priests have Dispersion so it's hard to argue it isn't attractive. I understand some players want the 51 to be a big damage spell for damage-dealing specs, but that just isn't always what we think the tree needs. I'm not saying we are going to take the talent trees to 61 or 71 points soon, but if we did, just think of the expectation. Does the 71 pointer need to blow all of the previous talents out of the water? Do deeper talents need to become more powerful at the same time the character gets more of them? That leads to a lot of power inflation. We think talents probably account for too much of a character's power already.

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Dispersion is good for a one point talent yes but the reason why it feels so weak is it just helps some low % in pve and only seems to keep us alive for 6 more secs in pvp. If Something like Power infusion was a 31 talent im guessing we wouldn't see very much of Dispersion in pve build in the very least. You always say that 51 talents are meant to be nice but you try not to make them the full tree (like TG...), with Dispersion its sorta like "well i could get cheaper faster bubbles or free mana so i don't need to drink". I do think lowering the CD is a good thought maybe even adding some hp regen but i still think this is always going to be the spell we love to hate~

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry my comment about MC confused people. I have to think of everything in terms of PvP and PvE and I slipped into a PvE answer on a PvP question. It is very potent CC in 5-player dungeons. I don't think it's worthless in PvP, though I admit it's situational.

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Good ole GC "Coffee" D:
Why isnt MC useable on like any mobs in ulduar? is MC just too powerful to be used as a CC for trash?
As for PVP its big flaw is that its cast time takes about 1/3 of how long it lasts meaning the spriest is CCed for 13sec while the target is CCed for 10 and DR just kill it even more. I do like that you removed the 25% snare on the MCed target in 3.0 it was a pretty silly thing to have.
As for our pvp targets why arn't we allowed to use their skills? Too powerful? Too much work for little payoff? Hell im sure you guys could get away with letting us use their level 1 base Skills. At least letting MC hunters use their range would be kool (HEY i can dream)

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Q u o t e:

We'll consider a Devouring Plague a no-cooldown, limit-one implementation. I'm pretty sure it's only set up that way because it used to be a racial and those were supposed to be infrequent.

I also suspect Psychic Horror has a travel time because it was most likely cloned from Death Coil. We'll look into changing it.

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Gogo Bug fixes! i'm guessing IMP DP is getting looked at too? (Missing target at spell hit cap and criting for nothing)
As for PS how do the devs Feel about its CD?

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Q u o t e:

We have at least one other exciting Shadow PvP change, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it yet. It's not Dispersion (which we still think is fine).

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For Patch 3.2 i hope ^.^

Few Things-

-How do you Feel about our Mana Regen? In Pve we are swiming in it but in PVP we are just OOM.
It feels like our mana Keeps us From healing more then Shadowform these days. Are the days of crazy Spriest mana long gone for pvp?

-What was the thought in the Shadow Fiend change? was it seen as being to powerful or was it too "Different" from normal Pets?
Right now it just Feels like it was a change to nerf us more then anything.

As for what you said on a whole it Seems like most our are issues are from just Class overall "Rules" you have. We Can't have X cause it makes Y weak and then Z is needed to counter X kinda sillyness :/

PS: Thanks for the Feed back as always GC!