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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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thanks, please keep chipping away. I dont want to devalue the work you are doing and I am greatful for any change but i hope it's just the tip of the changes.

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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Good stuff, I haven't been checking the forums. I'm very to happy see that my thread has gotten so much attention! Have any fury changes in mind that you may not be ready to share with us yet? =)

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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Awesome. anything to increase threat gen is a very good thing.. even if it is only "Slight"


<3

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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WTB Cleavastate - Devastate now hits an additional target. 20 Rage.

Need moar. We are 30% behind other tanks for DPS -- we need more than a 2% increase.

But 2% > 0%.

as if mitigation wasn't bad enough,this is just another reason to avoid it alltogether

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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Very nice change to see, but what about our aoe damage and threat?

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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So we are going to get more AP from AttT, rage on avoidance, and a damage buff to devastate. I like these changes. Thanks GC.

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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Very nice GC!

Its not all that needs to be done of course, but its certainly a step in the right direction! =)

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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This is great, but any news on the AE threat front?

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Q u o t e:
If you haven't seen it yet, the most recent PTR build also has a slight damage boost to Devastate.

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Very nice GC. It was a buff a lot of Warriors were asking for

I agree that devastate change is a welcome one.

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Q u o t e:

So we are going to get more AP from AttT, rage on avoidance, and a damage buff to devastate. I like these changes. Thanks GC.

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Remember you're going to lose some AP from AttT with the changes to inspiration and ancestral healing. We should be ahead in the grand scheme of things, but the AttT change is mostly offset by the loss of those armor procs in a lot of spam-heavy fights.

take off def stance penalty and lower CD on tclap by 2seconds and i'll be happy.............maybe :D

We've gotten 200ish attack, a slight devastate increase, and an improvement for rage generation. I'm pretty satisfied right now.

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Q u o t e:
We've gotten 200ish attack, a slight devastate increase, and an improvement for rage generation. I'm pretty satisfied right now.

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Careful saying things like that. I am under the distinct impression that if GC sees even a single post claiming a warrior is content, he will take that as "The warrior community is content. Shall we get back to counting our money?" Its a series of baby steps in the right direction, but far from what is required to bring us on par with the other tanks.

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Q u o t e:

Judging by your achievement history I'm going to assume you're someone's alt who doesn't know any better. It isn't without cost when we swap into another stance. You're giving up whatever rage was left over when you stopped tanking and you'll start tanking after the taunt without a lot of rage. That's not really ideal at all. A DK isn't dumping his RP to go into blood presence (and the net cost there of a "stance shift" is 2 runes). A druid is probably the only other class who has this issue and they do significantly more damage as a cat in bear gear than we do with a stance swap. The amount of damage we're going to do even with all the gymnastics you've outlined is still low.

You're still at a net dps loss when you aren't tanking and it's a much bigger net loss than any other tank because too much of our threat and damage is based on a "reactive" source.

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You aren't losing anything. Any rage that's there, is used to drop devestates/shield slams until you're empty, which is quick since you aren't getting hit. Switch stances, utilize *other* skills the warrior has. When you taunt back you'll be OOR (or at 10 rage if you had more when you switched) for 1 hit, which is generally the instant you taunt, or you can pop a bloodrage and go right at it.

My achievement history on this toon is irrelivant and simply a crutch that forum users fall back on whenever they don't want to debate the merits of the post. We're at a loss when not getting hit, but we're more useful in other stances, using other skills when we aren't getting hit - then we are sitting in def stance, white hitting and QQing about it on vent.

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Q u o t e:
Switch stances, drop a rend, utilize berserker stance, whirlwind, etc... There are ways for a tank to maintain decent DPS while OTing and not being hit. It's much higher then white hits w/ the occasional sunder. Since it doesn't COST to switch stances, you can easily switch back to def, taunt and start generating rage the normal way again.

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What? Have you even tried your suggestions? Switch from def to battle to rend ...seriously, what? Why, when you can rend in def stance?

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Q u o t e:
You aren't losing anything.

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I'm losing 5% damage (-10% from the enrage that procs from imp def stance, +5% from beserker). I'm lose access to revenge, shield block (for hard-hitting shield slams) and damage from damage shield. You think WWs and 3% crit makes up for all that? >.<

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Q u o t e:
We're at a loss when not getting hit, but we're more useful in other stances, using other skills when we aren't getting hit - then we are sitting in def stance, white hitting and QQing about it on vent.

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Dual-wield WW in beserker and dev/SS spam in defensive give extremely similar numbers if you're in regular tank gear. I'm particularly confused as to how we're "more useful" in other stances, when beserker loses access to thunderclap (a pain if part of your OT role is designated debuffer), and battlestance doesn't have an interupt (another common OT role).

I'm a regular OT, and I've played around a lot with different gear/spec/stance combinations. If I'm in tank gear/spec and don't have incoming rage via raid damage, then I do significantly lower dps than the warrior MT. By significantly, I mean I can barely break 1500 dps (1200 is closer), while a warrior MT would be between 1800 (mitigation spec/gear) and 2400 (DW spec, threat gear). That increases again if you consider UA builds and/or easy content like Patch, where you can slack on debuffs and wear more DPS gear.

From my perspective, there's not enough synergy between the prot talent tree and the other stances, and too much of our damage is reactive (revenge and damage shield obviously) for us to ever beat a warrior MT if we OT in defensive stance even if we had infinite rage.

Edit: Since I do get to MT a bit in 10-mans, I'd like to say thanks for the rage bandaid and the devastate buff :D

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Q u o t e:
What? Have you even tried your suggestions? Switch from def to battle to rend ...seriously, what? Why, when you can rend in def stance?

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You can also rend in battle stance while doing more white damage.

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Q u o t e:
I'm losing 5% damage (-10% from the enrage that procs from imp def stance, +5% from beserker). I'm lose access to revenge, shield block (for hard-hitting shield slams) and damage from damage shield. You think WWs and 3% crit makes up for all that? >.<

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You aren’t getting enrage procs because on the battles this discussion is referring to, you aren’t the main target of the boss, and therefore, aren’t blocking, dodging or parrying anything. So you can’t revenge, you can’t enrage and you can’t utilize damage shield. Read the conversation, don’t jump in mid-stream.

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Q u o t e:
Dual-wield WW in beserker and dev/SS spam in defensive give extremely similar numbers if you're in regular tank gear. I'm particularly confused as to how we're "more useful" in other stances, when beserker loses access to thunderclap (a pain if part of your OT role is designated debuffer), and battlestance doesn't have an interupt (another common OT role).

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You can TC in battle stance, and still do more white damage, and hit harder w/ heroic strike thanks to not having the 5% penalty from def stance. The types of encounters I’m referring to (as quoted in the original post I referenced) don’t require you to interrupt. So you can better fulfill your role until it’s your turn to taunt – IN ANOTHER STANCE.

You missed the point. I read the whole discussion, it's about warrior OT dps vs other tank OT dps ... the fact that we lose dps when not tanking, compared to other classes who either stay the same or improve. It was already stated that DW-beserker does similar dps to Dev/SS in prot (wearing standard tank gear). That's pretty common knowledge (or at least I thought it was), so I wasn't trying to even explain the numbers/mechanics behind it.

I was talking about loss of revenge etc to explain that a warrior OT cannot out-dps a warrior MT.

What kind of dps numbers do you claim to get out of moving into battle and/or beserker stance? I'm trying to be open-minded, but as a regular OT, I do try to keep track of the current best rotation and everything I've seen has said Dev/SS wins. Edit: Not only what kind of dps are you claiming, what rotation and spec go with that?