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  • Stormscale
  • 140. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 05:32:22 PM PDT
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Alt bumping :)

Team B
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  • Steamwheedle Cartel
  • 141. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 06:46:01 PM PDT
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Ok, I admit it, I've been MIA for about 4 weeks due to work, but I'm really confused by the FoL + SS "buff". Maybe I missed a patch, but isn't SS still single target? And, if so, in general aren't we going to put it on the tank to maximize the value of it (or a lock, I suppose, for the increased FoL crit bonus). So, what we get is a hot every 12 secs on one person? That seems a tad anemic to me.

And now, with the rather significant nerfs to mana regen and pool, we probably won't want to be switching shield targets much (if we ever did).

So.... if SS is one target, that equates to one 4-6k hot every 12 secs at most ... personally, I don't think that's very attractive and will likely not change how I heal (although going oom with 1/3rd of the fight left and anemic mp5 certainly will!).

Btw, I was primarily a tankadin through most of BC and the first half of LK, but have enjoyed dual speccing heals. It certainly seems night and day between my impression of how the tankadin is handled by Bliz vs the healadin. The tankadin is fairly coherent and I feel generally positive about it (with exception of block mechanics), but the healadin seems to be getting "tweaked" and nerfed to heck and back (unfortunately, ret gets it worse). All in all, I don't think paladins have been well done by Blizz (way, way too many changes, fixes, hotfixes, and nerfs to feel good about as a player) with the exception of tankadins. Tis a pity.

I've been playing WoW since open beta, so what, 4 years now, and healing was a nice change for me that revitalized the game a bit, but lately I'm finding I'd rather read a book due to all the changes that just don't seem... right. My PvE ret bud feels the same. In fact the only thing that is keeping me considering playing every now and again is the people I've met, not the game itself... which is a change I had not anticipated, but I think is due to all these class changes that just don't seem in line with the player base but are done due to the vision of the developers (which is ok, it is their game, not ours, but it makes me feel about the same way I feel about a leased car that just doesn't quite work right, i.e. question why I keep it).

Btw, great OP.
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  • 142. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 06:50:51 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Ok, I admit it, I've been MIA for about 4 weeks due to work, but I'm really confused by the FoL + SS "buff". Maybe I missed a patch, but isn't SS still single target? And, if so, in general aren't we going to put it on the tank to maximize the value of it (or a lock, I suppose, for the increased FoL crit bonus). So, what we get is a hot every 12 secs on one person? That seems a tad anemic to me.



But but but, with the 2pc T8 we can have TWO super weak HoTs. That's good amirite?

They call me hadoken, cuz I'm down right FIERCE!
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  • 143. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 07:26:56 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:


He won't address it, He'll just ignore it.
He ignored one something similar like this.


Not responding != ignoring.

Let me repeat that for you -- Not responding != ignoring.

And one more time for those of you who need to grow up:

Not responding != ignoring.

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  • Hydraxis
  • 145. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 09:32:30 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
There's another thread "Illumination - The Math", where I showed that Paladins can replace every 4th HL with FoL and still retain the same mana usage/regen. Paladins will just need to find the appropriate times to cast FoL a quarter of the time.

Will this be enough to keep up the MT? I dunno.


i looked at your math and it is bad (as i said in that very thread). you've conveniently not redone it with the correct model.

[ Post edited by Terminal ]

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  • Dawnbringer
  • 147. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 10:51:55 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:

Look at the first Illumination nerf (100%->60%). Hundreds of pallies screamed and whined and tore their hair out and threatened to cancel their subs and claimed fervently that they would be unable to play their class and be replaced by hunters spamming mend pet and they would never be allowed to heal again yada yada. Same thing with the lifebloom nerf last patch.


I understand the point you are trying to make, but I don't think the initial Illumination nerf is a valid argument for it. It is one of the key reasons (and lack of raid heals) that led to pallies being sat out for the majority of Sunwell.
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Lyl
  • Alterac Mountains
  • 148. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 11:05:57 PM PDT
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Why can other healers keep up a tank fine if you have to spam HL nonstop? Holy pallies aren't as needed in raids as everyone thinks...
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  • Hydraxis
  • 149. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 11:13:10 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Why can other healers keep up a tank fine if you have to spam HL nonstop?


because the paladin's only other heal is flash of light, which doesn't have the throughput. holy light provides too much throughput, but it is better to be overhealing than underhealing.
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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 150. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 11:33:57 PM PDT
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Okay, since so many posters seem to feel that this summarizes paladin concerns in a nutshell, I will share our concerns.

The argument seems to be:

1) Our mana regen has to be extremely high.
2) Why? Because we have to spam Holy Light.
3) Why? Because if we don't, the tank will die.

That is the problem. Right there.

First off, no other class can get the HPS that a paladin can out of HL. They might not even be able to get the HPM when you consider the Illumination return on mana. Your druids may have great numbers on the meters. Are they going to keep a tank up with just Rejuv, Lifebloom and Nourish spam? Probably not. They are most likely topping off the tank in between HL blasts. We are completely balancing MT survival around HL spam.

But really the more important point is you're saying "The content will be too hard." The content (assuming you're talking about hard modes) is supposed to be hard. Tanks not dying makes the content too easy. Spamming HL to keep the tank alive with a very large if not infinite mana pool to back it up isn't fun, and it's not fun for the tank either because we then have to resort to enormous hits to ever have a chance of killing the tank, because we're certainly not going to run the healers out of mana. So then tanking becomes a game of cooldowns -- can you get Guardian Spirit up? Can you use Pain Suppression? Does the tank have IBF or Shield Wall ready for that next big hit?

But if we just nerf HL and mana regen, then what are Holy paladins supposed to do? Well, now they can Beacon someone and heal two players at once. Yes, I know you could always do that before, but you just got done telling me that you don't dare stop spamming HL on the tank or she'll die. Now you can heal the tank and someone else, or just heal two someone elses. Yes, I know that CoH and WG look really good on the meters. But topping off 5 people isn't nearly as useful as saving the life of one person. You can still target players and heal them. Players do it all the time. PvE healing does not rest entirely on smart, AE heals (though they might look really good on the meters).

We'd be in a much better place if the steps above read like this:

1) We have reasonable mana regen.
2) Why? Because then every problem doesn't look like a job for HL spam.
3) Why? Because we can keep the tank up with the tools we're given, unless we're in a hard mode, in which case we better be at the absolute top of our game, fully flasked, with the best gear available and a raid that has practiced, practiced, practiced.

Don't worry about the "not invited to raids" part. All the healers are getting invited to raids now even if the shamans are slightly underpowered and paladins can only do one job really well. We think with those two problems addressed, things will be in even better shape in 3.2, and if not we will continue to tweak the numbers until they are.

The best thing you can do is get on the PTR and try out the changes and see what it feels like. We'll put a lot more stock in that than we will guessing (even guessing with math) what the changes will bring. (Which is not to say feedback is irrelevant unless you're on the PTR -- but PTR feedback is really good.) Some druids predicted the world was ending with the Lifebloom nerf in 3.1. They are doing just fine.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer
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  • Earthen Ring
  • 151. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 11:38:16 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Because then every problem doesn't look like a job for HL spam.
This kind of statement would go down a lot easier if FoL was a bit better.
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  • 153. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/23/2009 11:55:30 PM PDT
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I haven't played a holy pally in a long time and I haven't really raided very heavily or anything, but from what I've been hearing from holy pallys in game and have been reading on the role forums it seems like a lot of the complaints stem from the fact that holy pallys thought they were getting a whole new heal or tool. Something that couldn't be spammed because of a high mana cost or cooldown or something but a tool that could help holy pallys feel useful in intense AoE or high mobility situations.

I've always been curious as to why pallys haven't gotten a new heal since classic. Not getting a new heal doesn't add to a flavor of a class, and the current toolset of a holy pally seems limited at best. It doesn't matter if your spamming FoL or Spamming HL, its still spamming and spamming one ability for an entire fight isn't fun.

Again, I haven't been holy since the first half of BC, and I've only stepped foot into ulduar twice, so if I said anything wrong or stupid feel free to ignore me
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  • Dawnbringer
  • 154. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/24/2009 12:00:46 AM PDT
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I don't know how many pallies think the current HL spam classifies as "fun". But even with the proposed 3.2 Beacon changes this play is not going to drastically change. Instead of dropping HL bombs on the tank, you will be dropping HL bombs on raid members. Like Odes mentioned, a buffed FoL would go a long way in moving paladins away from pure HL spam.

Some sort of FoL synergy while raid healing could also help. The proposed SS HoT from FoL only warrants Flashing the tank periodically, while still relying on HL for multi target healing. I'm glad the devs have decided to allow the paladin healing scope to finally expand some (*flashbacks of healing the 2nd boss in H MgT* ./cry). I personally would prefer to see some new ability to help in this rather than just baking it into one of our current heals, but if this is the route that the devs want to go then I think it can be done with a little more iteration.

Regardless of the route they choose to go, I'll try to stay optimistic. The current devs may not always get everything 100% right, but Holy Pally healing now is light years ahead of where it was in mid-late BC.
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  • Bonechewer
  • 156. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/24/2009 12:11:45 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Yes, I know you could always do that before, but you just got done telling me that you don't dare stop spamming HL on the tank or she'll die.


We could do that before. If a smart aoe heal didn't save someone and they needed to be saved be a massive single target heal then you could be pretty sure that your heal wouldn't be sniped and you could heal them.

Sorry to say it again but this beacon change is nothing new. Yes it will look better on the meters but you just revealed why it is nothing new. We could already fairly safely perform an important "life-saving" heal on people in the raid. With this new beacon change we can now top off the raid while healing the tank which you just described as not as important.

"Please find my dear friends.
Dead or Alive" -redmakoto
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  • 157. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/24/2009 12:13:56 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I don't know how many pallies think the current HL spam classifies as "fun". But even with the proposed 3.2 Beacon changes this play is not going to drastically change. Instead of dropping HL bombs on the tank, you will be dropping HL bombs on raid members. Like Odes mentioned, a buffed FoL would go a long way in moving paladins away from pure HL spam.

Some sort of FoL synergy while raid healing could also help. The proposed SS HoT from FoL only warrants Flashing the tank periodically, while still relying on HL for multi target healing. I'm glad the devs have decided to allow the paladin healing scope to finally expand some (*flashbacks of healing the 2nd boss in H MgT* ./cry). I personally would prefer to see some new ability to help in this rather than just baking it into one of our current heals, but if this is the route that the devs want to go then I think it can be done with a little more iteration.

Regardless of the route they choose to go, I'll try to stay optimistic. The current devs may not always get everything 100% right, but Holy Pally healing now is light years ahead of where it was in mid-late BC.


would paladins (in general) be open to having a FoL that cost in the 700 mana range like other fast casting heals? basically my LHW (glyphed) is 50% better than FoL for 100% more mana.

would paladins feel that FoL was viable if it cost that much more but healed for more?

I'm just curious what the response would be among paladins... the ability to trade the incredibly low cost of it for more bang out of each cast.
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  • Black Dragonflight
  • 158. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/24/2009 12:15:45 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:


would paladins (in general) be open to having a FoL that cost in the 700 mana range like other fast casting heals? basically my LHW (glyphed) is 50% better than FoL for 100% more mana.

would paladins feel that FoL was viable if it cost that much more but healed for more?

I'm just curious what the response would be among paladins... the ability to trade the incredibly low cost of it for more bang out of each cast.


yes

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  • 159. Re: The Holy Pally Dilemma   06/24/2009 12:18:39 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:


yes
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