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Q u o t e:
# Discipline

* Penance: Cooldown increased to 12 seconds, up from 10 seconds.

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Q u o t e:
Glyph of Penance
Reduces the cooldown of Penance by 2 sec.

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There's no need to nerf the spell. All Discipline priest use this glyph. By nerfing the spell you make the glyph even more mandatory. Changing the glyph solves the cooldown issue and lets us choose another glyph.

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There's no need to nerf the spell. All Discipline priest use this glyph. By nerfing the spell you make the glyph even more mandatory. Nerfing the glyph solves the cooldown and lets us choose.

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Here's an even better one for you, change the glyph to something that makes it more attractive for PvE priests and less attractive for PvP, and leave the base CD alone. Up crit rate, apply an armor bonus to the target, apply a dispelable HoT, refresh renew, buff defense, dodge or parry, etc. There's no good reason to nerf disc pve when it's not OP.

Of course, that is assuming you don't think that disc is OP in PvE.

agree

If the glyph is OP in PvP then add a nerf to it that requires players to make choices in PvP glyphing. For example keep the 2s cd reduction to Penance but add a 2s incrreased cast time to mana burn.

Something that makes the PvP players face a big trade off if they choose the increased survivability. A trade off that the opposing PvP player/team could exploit.

Choices.

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Q u o t e:
agree

If the glyph is OP in PvP then add a nerf to it that requires players to make choices in PvP glyphing. For example keep the 2s cd reduction to Penance but add a 2s incrreased cast time to mana burn.

Something that makes the PvP players face a big trade off if they choose the increased survivability. A trade off that the opposing PvP player/team could exploit.

Choices.

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I like that. Even a 0.5s increase in mana burn cast time is a pretty elegant solution.

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Here's an even better one for you, change the glyph to something that makes it more attractive for PvE priests and less attractive for PvP, and leave the base CD alone. Up crit rate, apply an armor bonus to the target, apply a dispelable HoT, refresh renew, buff defense, dodge or parry, etc. There's no good reason to nerf disc pve when it's not OP.

Of course, that is assuming you don't think that disc is OP in PvE.

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how is that different from what I said?

I like how ur 10 second CD spells heal for more then my 3 min CD spell :(

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I like how ur 10 second CD spells heal for more then my 3 min CD spell :(

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That would be your 51 talent point spell, too, huh?

Oh, wait, you got a bunch of buffs this round...

Can you leave us to be sad in peace? I don't resent your buffs - you needed them for sure. But stop kicking us when we're down.

Blizzard: Here you go, Glyph of Penance! We know that this will be a hard decision to use over Glyph of Mind Soothe, but --
Players: Thanks! *entire disc population glyphs Penance*
Blizzard: ... That's not what we meant. You must be punished for using what we give you!

This is no different than many other healer nerfs.

Blizzard: Targetable PoH!
**one month later**
Blizzard: HOW DARE YOU USE POH TO HEAL THE RAID-WIDE AOES PRESENT ON EVERY OTHER ULDUAR ENCOUNTER! Face the fury of the nerfstick!

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899681400&sid=1&pageNo=2#29

The first paragraph there. The change was made entirely for PvP reasons (to reduce burst healing in PvP).

A complete disregard for its effect on PvE.

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Q u o t e:


A complete disregard for its effect on PvE.

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Welcome to WoW, where healers who are viable in PvP cannot be equal to healers that aren't simply because of some silly lolpvp sidegame present in the game.

So rather than wallowing in misery and disgust we can offer alternatives for compensating PVE disc priests.

- An added tick from the Penance glyph rather than a 2sec CD reduction. Makes Penance more interruptable, thus more dangerous in PVP.

- Buffing Imp: Flash Heal to improve the spell power coefficient. PVP gear trades resilience for mana regen and spell power, thus minimizing the effect of this change in PVP compared to PVE.

- The clumsy and probably altogether ineffective (yet widely championed on these forums) tying of a Mana Burn nerf to the Glyph of Penance.

- Beefing up of Divine Aegis with greater % of crit heal converted to shield and limited stacking capacity. Limited stacking minimizes lost throughput from back to back crit heals (like with Penance) common to the more "spammy" and rapid healing done by PVE tank healers. Also PVP disc priests are going to have less crit due to resilience gear than PVE disc priests, thus less of an effect in arenas.

These are just some things I can think of off the top of my head. Any of these could be a good start I think.

Edit: Wow GC's on late O_o

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Q u o t e:



Furthermore, some Disc priests were pretty much down to just casting PoM, PWS and Penance. Increasing the cooldown is much less of a nerf that decreasing the amount healed because you still have that time in which to use another spell, such as a Renew or Flash Heal. It's a fun spell and we don't think this change will make it any less attractive for PvP or PvE.

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PoM, PW:S, and Penance are the only heals that set Discipline apart from other classes/specs.

Unfortunately, the HPS difference between disc Flash Heal and every other class' Flash Heal is pretty abysmal - disc priests lack any Empowered talents or spells which give most other flash heals some 'umph'. If they're not casting PoM, PW:S, and Penance, than they're performing under what another healer is doing. As opposed to, say, resto shamans who will be able to tank heal without ever suffering a drop in HPS.

Ok I understand Priests are currently one of the better arena healers to have on your team, and the desire to nerf/bring us in line there with other healers is understandable. Howeverrrrrr.....

This change severely affects our main role as MT healers in Ulduar and beyond, why is it our 51 point talent which heals( for me on average) for between 10 and 16k needs to have a 12 (TWELVE )second cooldown).?

Spells which heal for a similar amount for other classes( Holy light, Healing Wave) do not have ANY cooldown, and do not necessarily require a glyph to be useful. I use 5-6 different spells to do my job, yet, other Tank healing specs can literally hit one button AFK watching tv for 10 minutes and perform similarly.


On fights with heavy burst damage on the MT, such as Steelbreaker or Algalon I can compete with paladins and Healing Way specced Shamans the majority of the time, but after my penance, shield, and PoM, are on cool down there is a 3-4 second window when I am casting 5k flash or binding heals. My HP/S >>SEVERELY<< drops off here and its during this window that a tank is most likely to die.

This change does the following

a) increases the window where our Hp/s drops, leading to more likely tank death.

b) FORCES you to glyph penance where as before there was at least some flexibility in your options.

c) With the new Shaman changes makes us the 3rd best tank healer, which leads to

d)Reducing us to raid shield spammers, which is a cool concept but incredibly boring in practice and
with the PoH nerf that is coinciding with this we are even worse at raid healing which leads to

e) Spec holy or get out.

I'm sick and tired of PvP changes affecting PvE and if Blizzard believes that this change is needed for PvE, I have to wonder if they've played a disc priest.. Priests were, for the first time since Vanilla wow actually balanced for healing both trees were useful, but not overpowered. We may have had a slight edge over Shamans, but that was being addressed with the patch, this is completely uncalled for.

-Az.

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That's not entirely true. When we looked at how much damage Disc was preventing with absorbs, it could equal the amount of healing done. That's a big number (though your mileage may vary).

Furthermore, some Disc priests were pretty much down to just casting PoM, PWS and Penance. Increasing the cooldown is much less of a nerf that decreasing the amount healed because you still have that time in which to use another spell, such as a Renew or Flash Heal. It's a fun spell and we don't think this change will make it any less attractive for PvP or PvE.

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Then why not change the glyph? Why are you making this glyph completely mandatory at this point?

Seriously, GC, I can't show an accurate accounting of shield absorbs to my raid leader. He's looking at my "visible" healing because you guys haven't built in the ability to really track the shield absorption. My visible healing throughput is already low, this is going to lower it even further. What the hell am I supposed to tell him when he points out that healers with half my gear are doing twice my healing?

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That's not entirely true. When we looked at how much damage Disc was preventing with absorbs, it could equal the amount of healing done. That's a big number (though your mileage may vary).

Furthermore, some Disc priests were pretty much down to just casting PoM, PWS and Penance. Increasing the cooldown is much less of a nerf that decreasing the amount healed because you still have that time in which to use another spell, such as a Renew or Flash Heal. It's a fun spell and we don't think this change will make it any less attractive for PvP or PvE.

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Much of the damage that Disc priests are preventing with absorbs is PW: S raid spamming, a tactic completely unrelated to Penance. If you know of a parse where actual main tank throughput was equaled by DA absorbs, I'd be extremely surprised.

I'm not sure who those "some" are, but that would be a lazy Disc priest =/ Currently, an optimal throughput rotation would be PW: S - PoM - Penance - FH - FH - FH - Penance. Adding an extra FH to this rotation decreases our actual throughput from an already mediocre level and hinders effective DA stacking.

Given that all of the references to this Penance change were PvP related, this mention of our OPness feels sort of tacked on.

Edit: Oh, and Renew? Really? =/

he didn't answer the god damn question.

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Q u o t e:


That's not entirely true. When we looked at how much damage Disc was preventing with absorbs, it could equal the amount of healing done. That's a big number (though your mileage may vary).

Furthermore, some Disc priests were pretty much down to just casting PoM, PWS and Penance. Increasing the cooldown is much less of a nerf that decreasing the amount healed because you still have that time in which to use another spell, such as a Renew or Flash Heal. It's a fun spell and we don't think this change will make it any less attractive for PvP or PvE.

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So in 3.1 you implement a glyph to reduce the cooldown by 2 seconds. And 3.2 you increase the cooldown by 2 seconds. Now penance is in a position in which it is exactly like it was before 3.1, except now we have a glyph that is required.

Currently because of the way damage is done to tanks in Ulduar, it requires heals to be able to top up tanks immediately. They will die in 2 or 3 hits. This kind of environment does not lend itself to the 4k flash heal or 1.3k a tick renew that this increased cooldown will allow us to cast. No one was complaining about disc in PvE, and there was no indication from devs that it was at all an issue (in fact quite the contrary). Why this sudden change? Do you have any worries that this will make disc priests fall further behind paladins in the tank healing role? What has changed since 3.1.2 (or whatever patch it was), where you deemed a similar change to this was unnecessary?

Why can't you just change the glyph to have a side effect that nerfs PvP? Like increasing the cast time of mana burn, or not allowing penance to be self cast.

Also, in regards to "some" disc priests only casting pom, pws, and penance. Those disc priests are not good disc priests. Why is it that shaman are balanced based off the input you get from shaman in very prominent guilds, whereas you're making a change to disc priests because of the poorest users of our spec.