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  • 0. The Real Top Mage Questions   06/18/2009 11:42:59 PM PDT
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Here's the deal, GC. Mages have 2 major problems going for them:
1) Their dps is low on many fights.
2) They have an absolute ton of other problems.

From what I understand #1 is really, really hard to fix. Like playing chess blindfolded against a super-intelligent robot using only pawns. Mostly because nobody can agree on how much damage any class should be doing at any given time. It's like quantum physics or something.

But #2... Suffice to say, if you worked on #2, we'd probably be more forgiving of a slower, more organized approach to #1.

Now, I know what you are thinking. #2 has like a bajillion™ things in it. It probably does. But most of them are significantly less subjective than #1. In fact, you don't necessarily have to have all the answers right now. You might not even agree with us. But, acknowledging the actual issues is far better than where we stand right now.

You've seen the general response to your Q&A. It's not pretty. That really can't be helped at this point. But you can manage the fallout. Below are a fair sampling of the actual questions the Mage commmunity has. It's not neccessarily complete (and I know that everyone will let me know what I missed), but it's a start.

Here's what we'd like to see for these questions:
A) I don't understand the question.
B) I don't feel the question is fair (and here's why).
C) I understand your question but development has a different view (and here's why).
D) I understand your question and agree. However, we don't consider it a high priority and do not have an ETA.
E) I understand your question and agree. We consider it a high priority and would like to have it resolved soon™.

Expanding on them would be nice, but honestly, we'll take what we can get.

Q1: Mages in general are not pleased with the seeming lack of control on their damage output. This is most noticeable in the case of fire mages. A complete dependence on RNG-based procs combined with a lack of worthwhile cooldowns leads to a "spray-and-pray" approach to casting. When can mages expect more control on their output?

Q2: On the subject of worthwhile cooldowns, when can we expect Combustion to be reviewed? It's currently very buggy and, even if it worked correctly, as crit percentages scale higher, it generally becomes a waste of a talent point.

Q3: The patch notes you have released show a combination of factors that will reduce mana availability to mages. This tells us that you feel that mages currently raiding Ulduar have a surplus of mana. Is this the case? If not, are we going to see more steps taken before 3.2 releases to provide additional mana resources?

Q4: Mages feel that Mana Gems and Healthstones should not share a cooldown as we are the only class in the game currently forced to choose on this matter (and with the apparent intent of our mana regen mechanics, it is not a choice at all.) When can we expect these to be unlinked?

Q5: Mage AoE is limited by the ground-area focus and significant mana cost associated with their AoE Spells. Other classes have more flexible AoE with significantly better at-will resource regeneration (i.e. Life Tap, AotV). This causes mages to be excluded from planning for AoE phases when possible and causes the need to drink constantly on trash packs. The feeling amongst some mages is that our AoE spells should be reasonably costed but with damage balanced to the point that with few targets (say, less than 3) they are impractical due to low damage, but scale better with more targets. This would be as opposed to making them overly costly mana-wise which makes them all but unusable now. Is this something that we could reasonably see happen?

Q6: You suggest that Spell Steal could be improved with a glyph. Many mages feel that we have too many mandatory major glyphs at this point and too few useful minor glyphs. Is there any chance in this expansion of us seeing the Spell Steal as a minor glyph, or other minor glyphs in general that could provide some enhancement to the class?

Q7: Torment the Weak is considered so mandatory by both Frost and Fire players that virtually every serious raiding mage in those specs has 18 points in Arcane despite having to waste points in the lower tiers for talents that have absolutely no benefit (not bad talents, just not relevant in any way to Frost or Fire). Additionally, on fights where we are forced to target non-snared mobs (think Kologarns arms), mages dps suffers heavily. The last time we saw a talent this mandatory was with Evocation. If mage dps is so dependant upon this talent, shouldn't we be expecting for it to be removed entirely, mage baseline dps improved, and the lower tiers of arcane spruced up with some more inviting talents?

[ Post edited by Illyana ]

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  • 1. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/18/2009 11:44:28 PM PDT
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Q8: You have told us that "Arcane is a little bloated." But unlike with Shaman, you've provided little explanation as to what you would like to see happen with this tree to correct some of the bloat. Can you give us examples of some of the changes we could expect to see?

Q9: As a raiding mage I can't find a single instance where I can put 5 points into a secondary talent tree and not feel like I've completely wasted at least 2 of those 5, if not more. When can we expect the talent trees to see at least enough review that we aren't having to immediately throw talent points away by dipping into another tree?

Q10: You seem to insinuate that Mirror Image actually reduces threat when all current data shows it as nothing more than a fade. If Mirror Image actually reduced threat generated while active, it would be a vast improvement. Can we ever expect to see this functionality? Can we ever expect it to come back off the GCD?

Q11: Evocation still suffers from the same issue that it has had for years. A bad void zone or random damage can completely remove a mage's ability to contribute to combat for the rest of the fight. Still, though, it is expected that this is one of our primary mana recovery tools. Is there anything in the pipe we can expect to see to correct this issue?

Q12: If you are going to continue to have longer fights, why do mana gems have charges? Really.

Q13: Living Bomb is an amazing single-target dps boost. However, it is junk for AoE. Can we have it explode when the target dies? If not, why?

Q14: Warlocks get the crit debuff at full strength baked right into their talent. Why doesn't Improved Scorch work this way?

Q15: Playing with Fire has always been a neat flavorful talent. But with the sorts of AoE damage flying around nowadays, it is starting to feel like too much of a liability. Why are mages unique in having a talent that actively hurts you?

Q16: Glyph of Mage Armor has no value post-3.1. When can we expect to have a replacement glyph?

Q17: Because of the ramping inherent in an Arcane Rotation, Arcane is falling significantly behind once 4pT8 is acquired. Do you have any changes planned to help mitigate this issue?

Q18: Speaking of 4pcT8, when are you adding a combat log event for the proc?

Q19: Flamestrike is just bad. The damage is bad. The cast time is long. The reticle is small. Mobs can wander away. We want this spell to be good. What is being done about that?

Q20: Fire is the only caster spec without a hit talent built in. When can we expect that to get corrected?
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  • 2. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 12:36:24 AM PDT
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Very good questions that address all of mage PvE issues. The lack of PvP might net you some complaints, but we're not hurting too bad in PvP right now.

Keep up the good work and I sincerely hope for all mages that your questions are actually answered and not just blown off!

-edit- You didn't mention rolling ignites. Even a little response on one of our biggest losses of DPS would be nice.

[ Post edited by Jaxyl ]

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  • 3. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 12:51:23 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
You didn't mention rolling ignites. Even a little response on one of our biggest losses of DPS would be nice.


I've not seen any conclusive evidence that rolling ignites causes appreciable dps loss. That doesn't mean it doesn't. It's just that the sources I have seen state that bugged ignite gain generally offsets bugged ignite loss.

Additionally, with the massive PvP changes and dismantling of 2s, I didn't feel overly qualified to speak on Mage PvP post-3.2.
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  • 4. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 12:52:35 AM PDT
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These are viable Mage questions.

I really feel for you on your Q&A it seemed like they were treating you people as 5 year olds compared to the actual questions answered in the shaman Q&A (even if in patch they may have ignored some of their own answers).

Its sad, I don't want a hunter Q&A now :(
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  • 5. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 12:59:33 AM PDT
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QA: You've been trying to make Frost PvE work for quite some time now, but you have not been successful. Do you have any ideas that don't involve Ice Lance and/or Shatter?

QB: Arcane DPS has fallen behind. Do you have any plans to fix this?

QC: Related to B, Arcane Barrage has fallen out of favor in almost all PvE situations. It's still useful on the move, but it doesn't have a real place in normal "rotations" because of its high mana cost and lackluster damage. Should we expect any changes to this spell in the future? Perhaps restoring the coefficient to its former value?

QD: You claim that Mages should not run out of mana so long as they use a reasonable rotation. The current mechanics simply do not support this statement. Are there any plans to change the way that Mages regenerate mana?

QE: How is getting mana back from Ignite more Mage-y than Innervate? It doesn't even make any sense! You cast a Fire spell and the target burns for a while, taking extra damage. That makes sense. Oh, and by the way, here's some mana. What?!

I used letters, so as not to be wrong on my enumerations. :)
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  • 6. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:18:07 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
QC: Related to B, Arcane Barrage has fallen out of favor in almost all PvE situations. It's still useful on the move, but it doesn't have a real place in normal "rotations" because of its high mana cost and lackluster damage. Should we expect any changes to this spell in the future? Perhaps restoring the coefficient to its former value?


I highly agree with this one and honestly, with the new resilience reductions, this may be the perfect time to correct this talent as the PvP implications won't be nearly as heavy.
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  • Korialstrasz
  • 7. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:26:32 AM PDT
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bump b/c I likeh deh mages :D

Seriously though, answering any of these questions would be awesome
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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 8. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:42:16 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
You've seen the general response to your Q&A. It's not pretty. That really can't be helped at this point. But you can manage the fallout. Below are a fair sampling of the actual questions the Mage commmunity has. It's not neccessarily complete (and I know that everyone will let me know what I missed), but it's a start.


That response really isn’t too surprising. Players tend to get upset unless whatever the most important question to them (or perhaps even the question they asked) gets answered. Hopefully it did reach enough players who had questions about the direction of the class. Those types don’t always post to say “Thanks for the Q&A.” People on forums, by and large, are those with an axe to grind. :)

I can’t answer all of these questions, for the same reason we couldn’t answer all of the submitted ones, but I’ll answer a few.


Q u o t e:
Q1: Mages in general are not pleased with the seeming lack of control on their damage output. This is most noticeable in the case of fire mages. A complete dependence on RNG-based procs combined with a lack of worthwhile cooldowns leads to a "spray-and-pray" approach to casting. When can mages expect more control on their output?


I think this phenomenon is overstated. The reason I say that is I know of mages who consistently outperform other mages with very similar gear (even within the same raid, when presumably buffs and leadership are constant). You could argue that the random numbers just always line up for them every time, but I don’t find that argument compelling.


Q u o t e:
Q3: The patch notes you have released show a combination of factors that will reduce mana availability to mages. This tells us that you feel that mages currently raiding Ulduar have a surplus of mana. Is this the case? If not, are we going to see more steps taken before 3.2 releases to provide additional mana resources?


I worded that answer poorly. The point I was trying to make is that our design is on challenging encounters the risk for healers running OOM should be much worse than casters running OOM. We want mages to use gems and Evocate, but if they do so reasonably well, then they should be fine on mana until the fights go for more than say 10 minutes. However, we don’t think the mage mana regen mechanics were cutting it, which is why we implemented the new mana return on Ignite. I think the patch notes said the return was 1%, but 2% might be more appropriate.


Q u o t e:
Q4: Mages feel that Mana Gems and Healthstones should not share a cooldown as we are the only class in the game currently forced to choose on this matter (and with the apparent intent of our mana regen mechanics, it is not a choice at all.) When can we expect these to be unlinked?


We will try to get them unlinked. I can’t recall if this was done for reasons of balance or kit, but it seems unnecessary.


Q u o t e:
Q5: Mage AoE is limited by the ground-area focus and significant mana cost associated with their AoE Spells. Other classes have more flexible AoE with significantly better at-will resource regeneration (i.e. Life Tap, AotV). This causes mages to be excluded from planning for AoE phases when possible and causes the need to drink constantly on trash packs. The feeling amongst some mages is that our AoE spells should be reasonably costed but with damage balanced to the point that with few targets (say, less than 3) they are impractical due to low damage, but scale better with more targets. This would be as opposed to making them overly costly mana-wise which makes them all but unusable now. Is this something that we could reasonably see happen?


I really don’t see situations where mages are not taken seriously as AE classes. Yes, some classes have higher burst AE on some trash packs. Mages still do great with Blizzard, and with the Ignite change we might even see a return of Flamestrike on some pulls.


Q u o t e:
Q6: You suggest that Spell Steal could be improved with a glyph. Many mages feel that we have too many mandatory major glyphs at this point and too few useful minor glyphs. Is there any chance in this expansion of us seeing the Spell Steal as a minor glyph, or other minor glyphs in general that could provide some enhancement to the class?


I was throwing that out there as a possible experiment. We intended Spell Steal to be a way to get a useful buff from an enemy. In practice it has become more of a generic dispel. Changing that could be both a buff or a nerf to mages depending on the situation.

Ghostcrawler
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Ghostcrawler
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  • 9. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:42:22 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Q7: Torment the Weak is considered so mandatory by both Frost and Fire players that virtually every serious raiding mage in those specs has 18 points in Arcane despite having to waste points in the lower tiers for talents that have absolutely no benefit (not bad talents, just not relevant in any way to Frost or Fire). Additionally, on fights where we are forced to target non-snared mobs (think Kologarns arms), mages dps suffers heavily. The last time we saw a talent this mandatory was with Evocation. If mage dps is so dependant upon this talent, shouldn't we be expecting for it to be removed entirely, mage baseline dps improved, and the lower tiers of arcane spruced up with some more inviting talents?


It’s hard to persuade us that mandatory talents are a bad thing. The alternative is that talent specs aren’t compelling because you could throw darts at your trees and have a viable spec. Furthermore, once you chill out a mandatory talent, then the next most powerful one is considered mandatory. I can’t think of a single talent tree for any class without a mandatory talent. It only becomes a problem when the character is severely restricted in being able to get fun utility talents because so many talents are tied up in the mandatory ones. But even in this situation I doubt mages are alone.


Q u o t e:
Q8: You have told us that "Arcane is a little bloated." But unlike with Shaman, you've provided little explanation as to what you would like to see happen with this tree to correct some of the bloat. Can you give us examples of some of the changes we could expect to see?


I am reluctant to do this because then if the changes did not materialize in the next patch, Arcane mages might be upset. In the Q&A I believe I mentioned Prot warrior and Ret paladin of models of how we would like to see all of the talent trees – very thin with an almost inability to spend all of your points in one tree.


Q u o t e:
Q10: You seem to insinuate that Mirror Image actually reduces threat when all current data shows it as nothing more than a fade. If Mirror Image actually reduced threat generated while active, it would be a vast improvement. Can we ever expect to see this functionality? Can we ever expect it to come back off the GCD?


Mirror Image divides your threat among the images. I thought this was well known unless I am misunderstanding the question.

EDIT: This is wrong and I am a fool. :)


Q u o t e:
Q12: If you are going to continue to have longer fights, why do mana gems have charges? Really.


You are supposed to have to manage your mana. You are not supposed to routinely run out. As an example of this if you are in a very short fight (like a hard mod with a fast burn) you should pull out all the stops. If you know the fight is going to go long, you should pace yourself. I would consider a mage who always did the same things in every given fight to not know their class mechanics as well as they could. Realistically, we have very few ten minute fights, and most are far shorter.


Q u o t e:
Q15: Playing with Fire has always been a neat flavorful talent. But with the sorts of AoE damage flying around nowadays, it is starting to feel like too much of a liability. Why are mages unique in having a talent that actively hurts you?


Kit. Homogenization is something we struggle with a lot. We don’t like it when two classes have very similar talents, though this is understandably one of the first things players suggest when they find a talent wanting.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]


Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer
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  • Gurubashi
  • 10. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:45:51 AM PDT
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Well then.


Q u o t e:
Hey Blizzard programmers, what's next? I shoot my Fireball and cheesburgers come out?

-Quintessence, Medivh
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  • 13. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:47:33 AM PDT
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These response GC were a lot better than the Q&A that you had.

I don't even play a mage but thank-you
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  • 14. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:53:48 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:


Those types don’t always post to say “Thanks for the Q&A.” People on forums, by and large, are those with an axe to grind. :)



Thanks for the "Q&A" ^_^



"If an average tank has 15k Max hp while fighting Patchwerk, would Patchwerk hit for 20k? Really?"
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  • 15. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:54:18 AM PDT
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Why is it that arcane is the only mage spec that cannot apply the 5% crit to spells buff?

[ Post edited by Farfnyd ]

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  • 16. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:54:30 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
We will try to get [Healthstones and Mana Gems] unlinked. I can’t recall if this was done for reasons of balance or kit, but it seems unnecessary.


I've played this game for a very long time. Even though I've never played a mage (past maybe level 30) I've heard this issue brought up numerous times before over the years, and it was basically just casually batted down each time.

This time seemed surprisingly smooth. You're up to something, aren't you... >_>

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Detheroc Board of Commerce and Tourism
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  • 17. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 01:58:34 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
These response GC were a lot better than the Q&A that you had.

I don't even play a mage but thank-you
This beats the official Q&A by a long-shot. Thanks.

*EDIT: I have a question GC if you would be kind enough to answer.

Seems that the new Seal of Corruption does significantly more damage once all 5 stacks are up. Is there any chance such a system could be implemented for Frost mages? Say once 5 Winter's Chill stacks are up Ice Lance can do DOUBLE the damage it currently does. This is difficult to pull off in PvP due to dispells and such, is neglegible for leveling because the mob is dead by then, and places Ice Lance exactly where is needs to be in PvE.

[ Post edited by Starshatter ]


Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
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  • Windrunner
  • 18. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 02:00:18 AM PDT
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Way to go OP, you forget the often-requested questions about scorch's mechanics, its availability to arcane, and its pretty clear inferiority to improved shadowbolt. (First tier of talent tree, five percent unglyphed, and applies as part of a normal dps rotation with no significant dps loss!)
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  • 19. Re: The Real Top Mage Questions   06/19/2009 02:02:41 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
You are supposed to have to manage your mana. You are not supposed to routinely run out. As an example of this if you are in a very short fight (like a hard mod with a fast burn) you should pull out all the stops. If you know the fight is going to go long, you should pace yourself. I would consider a mage who always did the same things in every given fight to not know their class mechanics as well as they could. Realistically, we have very few ten minute fights, and most are far shorter.


I can't agree with this, and you can check what I've done to get an idea of whether I know my class mechanics or not. Do elemental shaman or shadow priests have to manage their mana? On XT Hardmode (you know, before it got nerfed), I had to run the gamut of stopping dps for a little while before the heart came out, avoiding the use of sustained aoe damage to clean up after hard mode is activated, re-conjuring my mana gem in the middle of the fight, forgoing the use of a dps pot on the heart because then I would be OOM at some point in the middle of the fight, twisting arms to get in a group with mana tide, and hoping hymn of hope RNG/spark RNG/gravity bomb RNG was good enough not to screw me over. if any one of those was less than optimal I ran a high risk of going oom at 15%.

Meanwhile our spriests were multi-dotting the life sparks and XT for the entirety of hard mode, this following AOEing away at all the adds after the heart was destroyed. How do you reconcile this disparity?
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