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Q u o t e:
Shamans needed swords more than Rogues needed Axes...

Blizzard fails.. and shows its favoritism.

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Except they'd have to be doing rogues a favor...which axes are not.

The specialization bonus is inferior to CQC, which gives 5% crit to fists and daggers.

Most rogues won't use these.

Still think they ought to give shaman their swords.

So what do you say to the argument that rogues won't use the axes you put into the game because the primiere raiding spec doesn't actually incorporate sword/axe spec?

Giving rogues axes and a talent they won't use in order to give shaman more options seems like a roundabout and clunky method.

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Q u o t e:


Most of the axes will be one-hand, not main-hand. The reason we make the fists MH or OH isn't as a special favor to rogues or anything. It is usually because the art is designed to be left-handed or right-handed and looks really odd in the wrong hand (this is true of swords sometimes too). An axe is an axe though so we can make most if not all of them one-handed. We will drop more axes with this change -- this is why we are making the change. Shamans in Ulduar felt like there weren't enough axes. We want to be able to give them more options.

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What about the reason you make fists/maces/daggers FAST?

The list of 1h DPS weapons in Ulduar includes far more >2s weapons than it does <2.5s. The fast weapons do no favors to DKs, and you have stated that you don't want Shamans using fast weapons. That means that at least half of the loot table we can access is at best a sidegrade, and at worst a huge step down, regardless of the item level. All those fast weapons benefit Shaman/DK only as fodder for disenchanting.

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Q u o t e:

I'm sorry you don't agree with our interpretation of the lore. I ran it past the other design leads just to make sure that shamans with swords was something that went against the world of World of Warcraft. They said it did. Game balance and lore are both important to the game. Sometimes one has to give or the other has to give, but in this case we think we have a workable solution. We can change Drek's weapons though if that helps. :)

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When you ran the idea of Shaman swords by the team, did you also run by them the idea of rogues with axes? And I mean endgame, decked-out, over-the-top axes, not just the puny little gray starter pieces with no visual cue. If you did, then I'll drop this point for good. If not, why is one more lore-breaking than the other?

As for Drek's weapons, I don't think he would care if you called them swords, daggers, maces, or flying fish if they worked well under the Shaman mechanics.

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Q u o t e:
So what do you say to the argument that rogues won't use the axes you put into the game because the primiere raiding spec doesn't actually incorporate sword/axe spec?

Giving rogues axes and a talent they won't use in order to give shaman more options seems like a roundabout and clunky method.

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So let me get this straight, they are going to be adding more 1h Axes and Rogues won't be rolling on them and you are complaining?

I dont get your argument at all. Sounds like win/win for Shaman.

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Q u o t e:
Most of the axes will be one-hand, not main-hand. The reason we make the fists MH or OH isn't as a special favor to rogues or anything. It is usually because the art is designed to be left-handed or right-handed and looks really odd in the wrong hand (this is true of swords sometimes too). An axe is an axe though so we can make most if not all of them one-handed. We will drop more axes with this change -- this is why we are making the change. Shamans in Ulduar felt like there weren't enough axes. We want to be able to give them more options.

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The problem is, you did not state anything that would address the OTHER problem with shaman itemization, the ridiculous restriction to having to use SLOW/SLOW weapons to do competitive DPS. Sure, they're might be more axes, but are you:

1) Making them SLOW (2.6-2.9 speed), so that shamans won't have to tell their Raid leaders to, "SHARD IT!" and can actually gear up with no problems?

2) Planning on addressing this restriction by changing how WF or a weapon imbue so that slow weapons are no longer necessary?

If you state "no" or anything similar to it, then this whole design change is but a waste of time on your teams part, as shamans are still going to have problems getting new weapons. Giving rogues axes as an excuse to have more axes drop does nothing to solve a SHAMAN issue by itself. At least with giving shamans swords, they will have much more options.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry you don't agree with our interpretation of the lore. I ran it past the other design leads just to make sure that shamans with swords was something that went against the world of World of Warcraft. They said it did. Game balance and lore are both important to the game. Sometimes one has to give or the other has to give, but in this case we think we have a workable solution. We can change Drek's weapons though if that helps. :)

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How exactly is Shamans + Sword such a huge stretch with the lore? Rogues/Assassins/Ninjas with axes makes absolutely no sense, yet you went thru with it. And Draenei Shammies (And BE Pallies to a lesser extent) makes a LOT less sense, and you still went thru with that retcon as well.

How can you even argue this when Blizzard has made even wackier lore changes in the past on a whim just to improve WoW's gameplay as well?

Please gc, make drek dual wield barman's shankers!

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Q u o t e:


Most of the axes will be one-hand, not main-hand. The reason we make the fists MH or OH isn't as a special favor to rogues or anything. It is usually because the art is designed to be left-handed or right-handed and looks really odd in the wrong hand (this is true of swords sometimes too). An axe is an axe though so we can make most if not all of them one-handed. We will drop more axes with this change -- this is why we are making the change. Shamans in Ulduar felt like there weren't enough axes. We want to be able to give them more options.

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We felt there wasnt enough axes BECAUSE they were the only weapon type that didnt overlap with Rogues, we could get them hands down without having to wait in line for all the rogues in our guild to get them first, most top end guilds will gear up Rogues befor they touch their enhance shamans for the fact that rogues do more DPS..

That being removed since now we DO have to compete with rogues on axes, is the big complaint really wasnt AXEs in general but the fact that we lack redialy available OFFHAND WEAPONS...there is fast Maces and fists up the wazoo for offhand and to put this in perspectiv for you if you had not realised it a 143DPS 2.5 speed offhand weapon is BETTER then a 188DPS 1.6speed OFFHAND for a shaman, hands down IT IS we loose DPS using fast offhanders by an order of magnatude..

So unless ALL AXES are 2.5 speed or greater then all this change has done is screwed us on weapons again because now we have NO class of weapon available to us that isnt given priority to another class.

If we could get an answer that YES all axes will be slow weapons ( unless its a tanking one ya know )

Because fast axes just dont make sense in lore you know, and you can give Rogues Fast offhand swords for their sword spec, so no more fast offhanders for shamans please, either that or make it frigging viable for us to USE FAST OFFHANDERS THAT"D FIX THE PROBLEM VERY FAST, LIKE IMMEDIATLY, since I have 4 fast OH weapons sitting in my bank but I'm still using a 143DPS OH because they're all horrible for me.



oh and a BIT OF LORE...
Gul`Dan was a Shaman once...
He became a warlock, and used swords.

SO in the end, Shamans can use swords.

GC, I think the job you've done far exceeds what any designer has done in the past, the communication is excellent... I have a few points to make...

There are so many parts of this game where the lore has been absolutely rofl stomped, how does shaman using swords really destroy the lore. It sounds like sort of a wierd position to take a stand on perserving game lore.

Are you aware that there are 2 weapons in Ulduar, 10 and 25, normal and hard modes, that are itemized for elemental shaman? there are plenty of worthless daggers with spirit or maces with mp5, but only the soulscribe from yogg, and the mace from general 10 man are designed to meet elementals needs...By allowing shaman to use swords you would pretty much solve the problem in terms of elemental weapon choices..


I just feel like this is a wierd place to choose to stick to game lore, meanwhile my guild shards rogue weapons all the time.

Garona is probably the most well-known rogue in Warcraft Lore, and she wields small axes in the comic.

It's frustrating to see that this still seems to be stuck on a completely arbitrary lore interpretation (really? after TBC? I thought you guys gave up), and that GC's latest comment does nothing to address all the terrific arguments that have been made in this and other threads.

Weapon speed is still a huge issue, which means we're going to see another raid with a bunch of "rogue-only" offhands, probably of several types to accommodate all the wonderful weapon specs in which Blizz wants to allow rogues to indulge.

GC, are you guys satisfied with current Elemental/Resto weapon options? Maces with mp/5, daggers with spirit, obviously staves are right out...

I'm going to nitpick the lore, by the way. Assuming most of the orcs currently comprising that constituency of the Horde have been alive since before the great shamanistic revival, how does it make sense that none of them could remember how to use a sword? I don't remember the WC2 orcs having this much hand-wringing over their choice of weaponry.

What makes an axe more 'shamanistic' than a sword? Clearly it has to be a conscious choice to use an axe, mace, or fist weapon over a sword, since there's no 'training'-related reason for it, and shaman using swords appears to be a huge gameplay convenience compared to this (in my opinion) nonsensical "leap out of the shadows with an axe" 'solution.'

Combat rogues = berserkers = no stealth? Of course not.

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Q u o t e:
Garona is probably the most well-known rogue in Warcraft Lore, and she wields small axes in the comic.

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It's a Kama, not an axe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_%28weapon%29

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Q u o t e:

So let me get this straight, they are going to be adding more 1h Axes and Rogues won't be rolling on them and you are complaining?

I dont get your argument at all. Sounds like win/win for Shaman.

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I'm not complaining. My point is that they changed the way the rogue class works in order to give shaman more options, instead of changing the way the shaman class works to give the shaman more options.

Giving shaman swords, on the other hand, would have resulted in the shaman actually using the swords.

I guess I just don't see the point in giving a class an extra weapon option when they aren't going to use that weapon option. Especially when you have the choice of giving a class an extra weapon option that they will most definitely use.

I would like to remind the non-rogues here that you don't need to drop fast axes for rogues. A slow axe and a fast sword would work fine, because the two weapon types are being thrown on the same talent.

Fast swords, incidentally, can make good tank weapons, especially if you load them up with attributes that work for both tanking and DPS, such as agility, stamina, hit rating, expertise rating, and attack power.


Lastly, most rogues will spec for whatever weapons they have available to them. Unless the rogues in your guild are pricks, if you point out that they can have the daggers or fist weapons while you take the axes, they'll probably be fine with that.

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Q u o t e:


Most of the axes will be one-hand, not main-hand. The reason we make the fists MH or OH isn't as a special favor to rogues or anything. It is usually because the art is designed to be left-handed or right-handed and looks really odd in the wrong hand (this is true of swords sometimes too). An axe is an axe though so we can make most if not all of them one-handed. We will drop more axes with this change -- this is why we are making the change. Shamans in Ulduar felt like there weren't enough axes. We want to be able to give them more options.

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Right now we dont have that many options :P If you want the best setup, you cant use swords... If you want the 2nd best setup, you still cant use swords. 1.5 speed offhand swords just makes them weaker than 1.4 speed offhand daggers. Better for applying deadly poison, better for CP procs, better for fan of knives damage since daggers get a +50% boost.

I just dont understand how youre going to put 1.4 speed daggers in game, with suitable main hands (hell the best combat main hand is a fist too...), and expect us to use the various 1.5 speed same ilvl offhand swords.

Same problem with fists. What rogue in their right mind would use an offhand fist?

I plug combatant's bootblade, 1.4 speed ilvl 232 into the rogue combat spreadsheet on EJ, and I see a substantial DPS increase over delirium's touch, 1.5 speed ilvl 239. This is ridiculous considering delirium's touch drops off Heroic Hard Mode Mimiron, who is widely considered to be the hardest encounter in the game right now. CB drops off of normal hard mode thorim, which you can easily do with less than 10 people.

Weapons in ulduar are just itemized poorly honestly :( I'm hoping for better with axes, but for the last two dungeons we've been forced into fist/dagger. Please look into this.

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Q u o t e:
We have trouble dropping one-handed weapons in raids because there is so little overlap among the classes. Shamans can't use swords. Rogues can't (currently) use axes. DKs can't use fists. That means just about everyone gets maces.

We took an informal vote and everyone here thought shamans with swords went against a lot of the traditions of the class in the lore, and DKs with fists was kind of weird too. Rogues seemed like the class that would pretty much pick up any weapon in a fight -- they use a broken bottle in at least one notorious case.

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might i suggest replacing the Fury trees 51 point talent with something else, and allowing fury warriors to duel wield 1 handers again to help solve this problem? :)

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Q u o t e:


Right now we dont have that many options :P If you want the best setup, you cant use swords... If you want the 2nd best setup, you still cant use swords. 1.5 speed offhand swords just makes them weaker than 1.4 speed offhand daggers. Better for applying deadly poison, better for CP procs, better for fan of knives damage since daggers get a +50% boost.

I just dont understand how youre going to put 1.4 speed daggers in game, with suitable main hands (hell the best combat main hand is a fist too...), and expect us to use the various 1.5 speed same ilvl offhand swords.

Same problem with fists. What rogue in their right mind would use an offhand fist?

I plug combatant's bootblade, 1.4 speed ilvl 232 into the rogue combat spreadsheet on EJ, and I see a substantial DPS increase over delirium's touch, 1.5 speed ilvl 239. This is ridiculous considering delirium's touch drops off Heroic Hard Mode Mimiron, who is widely considered to be the hardest encounter in the game right now. CB drops off of normal hard mode thorim, which you can easily do with less than 10 people.

Weapons in ulduar are just itemized poorly honestly :( I'm hoping for better with axes, but for the last two dungeons we've been forced into fist/dagger. Please look into this.

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That's a problem with Combat Potency, not itemization per se. If CP (and FA) granted energy based on the speed of the weapon in question (or were changed to PPM like IP/WP), weapon speed wouldn't trump weapon damage. Of course if you do that, fast weapons are useless.

Deadly Poison really shouldn't be an issue. On a single target, 1.5 and 1.4 are both fast enough to refresh it.

I don't think FoK really factors into it much. The 50% dagger boost makes up for combat's main hand damage.

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Q u o t e:
We can change Drek's weapons though if that helps. :)

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Drek spent some time as a warlock - it fits with lore that he can use swords

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Q u o t e:


Most of the axes will be one-hand, not main-hand. The reason we make the fists MH or OH isn't as a special favor to rogues or anything. It is usually because the art is designed to be left-handed or right-handed and looks really odd in the wrong hand (this is true of swords sometimes too). An axe is an axe though so we can make most if not all of them one-handed. We will drop more axes with this change -- this is why we are making the change. Shamans in Ulduar felt like there weren't enough axes. We want to be able to give them more options.

I'm sorry you don't agree with our interpretation of the lore. I ran it past the other design leads just to make sure that shamans with swords was something that went against the world of World of Warcraft. They said it did. Game balance and lore are both important to the game. Sometimes one has to give or the other has to give, but in this case we think we have a workable solution. We can change Drek's weapons though if that helps. :)

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We often do not get the answers we want, the way we want them or when we want. But the bottom line is Shaman are getting more axe drops in 3.2. Hopefully this will appease the horde of angry Shaman. It is not the answer I want but at least it is a clear answer that addresses the issue. Thank you for that.

Now fix the stamina issue for PVE Enhance Shaman (seeing if bolding something works twice).